Open Carry Harassment South Bend-Video

[dsom2006]

If you're ever in a position that you're carrying in public and asked by an LEO to show your LTCH or give your name and DOB to prove that you have said LTCH, you should refuse both and report back on what happens just to prove that you're so cool. Gotta love keyboard warriors.

So everyone should just bow to the authority and forfeit each and every right that our constitution grants us. If you want to do that because it is easier please feel free. I for one have nothing to hide, but I respect those hat fought for my rights and I intend to keep them and use them.

 

[JMoses]

So everyone should just bow to the authority and forfeit each and every right that our constitution grants us. If you want to do that because it is easier please feel free. I for one have nothing to hide, but I respect those hat fought for my rights and I intend to keep them and use them.

If you don't like it, contact your local legislators to change the law, until then, deal with it.

 

[1911ly]

What crime did he commit to be legally required to provide his ID or his license to carry? Absolutely none is the correct answer. If he did not commitment a crime he is under no obligation to provide any information about his identity or legal ability to carry. Had they arrested him for failing to show ID or a license it would definitely be an unlawful arrest.

So let's say the cop drives buy and decides there's nothing going on and just drives by. And then a fellow citizen comes along and this nut decides to unload his gun in to a few vehicles. Would you guys or the community be happy with the officer's decision? Who's at fault? The cop for not doing anything?It's just something I am pondering.

The average mentally sane person doesn't sling a gun over his shoulder and carry around a sign to taunt cops. I hope this fellows next confrontations go peacefully. Because the potential is there for it not to. He is actively looking for a confrontation.

 

[Hoosierdood]

What crime did he commit to be legally required to provide his ID or his license to carry? Absolutely none is the correct answer. If he did not commitment a crime he is under no obligation to provide any information about his identity or legal ability to carry. Had they arrested him for failing to show ID or a license it would definitely be an unlawful arrest.

He has committed the crime of carrying a pistol. In Indiana, that is a crime. It is an affirmative defense to the crime if the individual has a LTCH. The burden of proof is on the individual to prove that they are licensed. This can be done by showing your pink card or by giving your name and DOB.

 

[dsom2006]

Change what law?

There is no law that says I have to give up my 2nd and 4th amendment rights as you so quickly want to do because it's easy. I along with every other American who sees the value of the 2nd and 4th amendments will call their legislators if they try to change them.

 

[ghuns]

Some on here need to use the search feature...

Whoa! INGO has a search feature? Next you'll tell me there's a FAQ.

 

[dsom2006]

I certainly do not want to ever see anyone get hurt, but that is a risk that we all take in exchange for our personal freedoms granted by the 2nd Amendment. LE knowing the fellows name and DOB does not make him any more or less likely to commit a crime. It is the past history that LE uses to "reasonably suspect" that individual has a propensity to commit a crime. If the fellow chooses to give LE that information then fine, but LE cannot force that information from him by taking his wallet out of his pocket and going through it absent RAS. The lawmakers have made a determination on what is legal and not legal and LE needs to operate within that framework. It is not the police officers duty to decide who can carry a rifle and who can not.

 

[JMoses]

Change what law?

There is no law that says I have to give up my 2nd and 4th amendment rights as you so quickly want to do because it's easy. I along with every other American who sees the value of the 2nd and 4th amendments will call their legislators if they try to change them.

Contact your local legislators and show your support for HB 1144 or try next time around to change the way Indiana's laws are written that leaves the door open for LE to be able to make the determination of whether or not you're legally carrying. It's sort of "silent" on the issue and anyone carrying in public is committing a crime until they display their pink slip or provide personal info to the officer to verify they are legal to carry. Are you able to follow that or do you need assistance in locating numbers or emails to make your contacts??


And I'm not talking about long guns, this pertains to handguns...

 

[Hoosierdood]

I certainly do not want to ever see anyone get hurt, but that is a risk that we all take in exchange for our personal freedoms granted by the 2nd Amendment. LE knowing the fellows name and DOB does not make him any more or less likely to commit a crime. It is the past history that LE uses to "reasonably suspect" that individual has a propensity to commit a crime. If the fellow chooses to give LE that information then fine, but LE cannot force that information from him by taking his wallet out of his pocket and going through it absent RAS. The lawmakers have made a determination on what is legal and not legal and LE needs to operate within that framework. It is not the police officers duty to decide who can carry a rifle and who can not.

Apparently you haven't been paying attention. Your question has been answered repeatedly by multiple users. In case you missed it, I will repost it.

He has committed the crime of carrying a pistol. In Indiana, that is a crime. It is an affirmative defense to the crime if the individual has a LTCH. The burden of proof is on the individual to prove that they are licensed. This can be done by showing your pink card or by giving your name and DOB.

If you are carrying a pistol and are asked by LEO to provide your LTCH or identify yourself, you are required to do it. Carrying a handgun is RAS. The officer does not have to have RAS that you are about to commit a crime since carying the handgun IS the crime.

 

[dsom2006]

He has committed the crime of carrying a pistol. In Indiana, that is a crime. It is an affirmative defense to the crime if the individual has a LTCH. The burden of proof is on the individual to prove that they are licensed. This can be done by showing your pink card or by giving your name and DOB.

I am almost certain that the case law that you need to brush up on is Deberry vs US. Basically says that the possession of gun by itself does not give rise to reasonable suspicion to stop a person. Therefore with there being no crime or suspected crime there is no detainment and no need to show a LTCH. Very Clear.

 

[JMoses]

I am almost certain that the case law that you need to brush up on is Deberry vs US. Basically says that the possession of gun by itself does not give rise to reasonable suspicion to stop a person. Therefore with there being no crime or suspected crime there is no detainment and no need to show a LTCH. Very Clear.

Oh my word! Have you read any of this thead? This was posted earlier, which was a post by an attorney on this forum. READ IT PLEASE!!

From Kirk Freeman here:


"Please understand that the 4th Circuit (federal appellate court) does not include Indiana. The issue in the Black decision was a North Carolina statute which permits individuals to carry handguns openly without a license.




In Indiana by carrying a handgun (openly, concealed, taped to your forehead) you are committing a crime. Having a Larry is an affirmative defense of carrying a handgun. When we all go out with handguns, we are committing crimes in Indiana.




If the police see you committing a crime Indiana courts have deemed this reasonable. Once the poooleeece determine that you is legal, then full stop. It should end.




Any challenge in Indiana under the Fourth Amendment or Article I, §11 will like be analogized to the case from Georgia (Christopher Raissi) which has a statute similar to Indiana where the stop and detention of Mr. Raissi was reasonable.




This does not excuse the officer from being short with the OP. This does not excuse the officer for getting certain points of law incorrect. This does not excuse the officer from taking the pistol (I think it is a matter of timing), but it does remind us all that when we carry guns, even though we have no plans for criminal activity, we are committing crimes. Our Larrys are merely defenses to that crime.




It is the way our statute is written."

 

[Rookie]

Oops...

 

[Rookie]

If they can stop someone who is carrying and ask for a LTCH, what keeps a patrol officer from pulling over every motorist for no other reason than to see their driver's license?

The Supreme Court decided they can't...

 

[Hoosierdood]

I am almost certain that the case law that you need to brush up on is Deberry vs US. Basically says that the possession of gun by itself does not give rise to reasonable suspicion to stop a person. Therefore with there being no crime or suspected crime there is no detainment and no need to show a LTCH. Very Clear.

And I am almost certain that you need to brush up on IC 35-47-2 (the laws governing the State of Indiana). Basically says what I have posted about 3 or 4 times. Very clear.

FYI, here is the pertinent code. Do yourself a favor and read it.

IC 35-47-2-1 Version b
Carrying a handgun without being licensed; exceptions; person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun.

IC 35-47-2-24
Indictment or information; defendant's burden to prove exemption or license; arrest, effect of production of valid license, or establishment of exemption
Sec. 24. (a) In an information or indictment brought for the enforcement of any provision of this chapter, it is not necessary to negate any exemption specified under this chapter, or to allege the absence of a license required under this chapter. The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, or that he has a license as required under this chapter.
(b) Whenever a person who has been arrested or charged with a violation of section 1 of this chapter presents a valid license to the prosecuting attorney or establishes that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, any prosecution for a violation of section 1 of this chapter shall be dismissed immediately, and all records of an arrest or proceedings following arrest shall be destroyed immediately.

 

[Roadie]

From Bradley D Rogers, Sheriff, Elkhart County..

In short, if the carrying of the firearm is the only focus, then an officer does not have aright to stop or detain you, nor ask for your handgun license. However, this does not mean that the officer cannot approach you and engage in conversation with you. This does not mean you are being detained unless the officer says so or keeps you from leaving.

http://www.elkhartcountysheriff.com/PDFs/ats21.pdf

 

[TaunTaun]

Does standing on a corner carrying a gun holding a sign seem a bit of odd behavior? Constitutional right ok, I'll give you that. But it's intimidating. You are raise undue fears.

The first time a cop blows off a confrontation like this and the guy walks down the street to a Dairy Queen (yeah there's a Dairy Queen right near there) and opens fire the cop will be blamed for not following up.

Most of you probably won't remember what happen just up the street a few blocks from that location.

A few years ago a cop was murdered on that street. Just west a few blocks. It happened across the street from where I worked.
Two South Bend police officers shot, one killed - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

And about 15 years ago a bunch of Wendy's employees were murder as well. About a block west.
Other area workplace shootings - South Bend Tribune: Public Safety

And around 30 years ago a Jewelery store owner was murdered just a block east. I can't find the article. It was Nunamalers Jewelery.


If you are going to be a nut and wave a sign while carrying a gun expect to be questioned. I'd be disappointed in a cop that did not stop.

This is like saying that in your general vicinity, someone was once killed by a drunk driver, so all drivers in the area are subject to breathalyzer and can be pulled over with no traffic infraction.

or...

Someone was once raped around here by a guy in a Ted Nugent costume, so anyone with a mullet is subject to arrest.

 

[Bigtanker]

Maybe I should stand on the opposite corner (which is Mishawaka) with a sign saying "I LOVE MISHAWAKA POLICE" with my rifle over my shoulder and see how the MPD handles it. I'd wear my INGO gear too!

 

[TheSpark]

In Indiana by carrying a handgun (openly, concealed, taped to your forehead) you are committing a crime. Having a Larry is an affirmative defense of carrying a handgun. When we all go out with handguns, we are committing crimes in Indiana.

Not true. The law says it is illegal to carry a handgun without a LTCH. If you have one you are not committing a crime at all. When a person is charged for carrying without a LTCH the charge is "Carrying a handgun w/o permit (or license)". The charge is not simply "carrying a handgun". Police, in Indiana, have no reason to suspect a crime in this case unless they have cause to believe you do not have a LTCH.

Pretty sure I read the ISP even recently issued a memo or training document to their officers saying that a person simply having a handgun on them is not sufficient to make a stop (or rather detain such individual).

Even if you don't agree with me on the ability for them to stop you, the claim that you are committing a crime regardless of LTCH or not is simply not true.

 

[chipbennett]

To be honest if you are going to run around with a rifle over your shoulder you can expect this kind of attention. Especially this day and age.

Why?

How many crimes are committed with long guns - much less a rifle strapped over the shoulder of someone standing on a street corner?

 

[OWGEM]

Why?

How many crimes are committed with long guns - much less a rifle strapped over the shoulder of someone standing on a street corner?

Really, you ask that? The general public see images of terrorists killing people with rifles all the time. And you ask why should someone carrying a rifle cause concern?