For the background on this post please see
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...on/374248-attn-range-nazis-3.html#post7092987
Short summary is an INGO member was shocked about a slew of new rules s/he found at WINAMAC DNR and how the RO was being overly active in enforcing them.
The new rules are as follows (in no particular order)
#1) No 50 MBG
#2) No loading of muzzle loaders on the firing benches
#3) No food/drinks on the firing benches
#4) No rapid fire (1 sec delay between shoots)
#5) Change of operating hours
#6) No holstered weapons
NWI INGO social group has an 8 year history with WINNAMC DNR and for the past 5 years we have partnered with them to do the NWI INGO/DNR WINAMAC YOUTH EVENT (This year's event will be sat 17 JUN 17). I was finally able to talk to our POC at DNR regarding all these changes.
Tony Carroll (now DNR manager for Kankakee State Fish and Wildlife Area) provided me with a summary of the changes that occurred WHILE he was the manger of WINAMAC DNR. The current manager Doug Green had NOTHING to do with the changes. He has been the manager for under a month. All the new rules came from a directive from DNR Headquarters in Indy. The local managers were not asked for input, just informed of the new changes.
I will address each one in the order I posted them.
#1) No 50 BMG
The DNR ranges were not designed to handle the .50 BMG round and the backstops/berms have taken some heavy damage from the use of this round. So the decision to not allow the .50 BMG at all ranges not designed to handle the round has been imposed. I asked Tom if he knew of any state ranges where the 50 was allowed. Tom could only speak for WINAMAC. However the only 2 "modern" rangers that he mentioned were Willow Slew or Deer Creek. "Modern" as in redone/upgraded in the past 5 years. I checked the website for DeerCreek and it does not allow .50 MBG (It looks like Kingsubry only bigger and I think is run by private contractor - GUY from INGO maybe??)
#2) No loading of muzzle loaders on the firing benches
This stems from a liability and safety issue. HQ felt that having both the black power and cap/primer at the firing bench could cause and ignition and fire.
No report of it occurring at WINAMAC; Unknown if it had occurred at other DNR locations. So to avoid this issue a separate "black powder loading area" was designated for all the ranges. Basically a small stand at the far right of the firing benches where you load the black powder and then you walk your weapon back to the firing range.
I asked what about the safety of walking a loaded rifle behind others from the powder bench to the firing bench. The rule is one ONLY loads the black powder NOT the cap/primer at the loading bench.
See this link for the steps in loading blackpowder.
https://www.hunter-ed.com/oregon/st...ing-an-In-Line-Muzzleloader/201038_700020850/
So basically steps 1 - 8 are done at the small loading bench. Then you walk the weapon back to the firing bench. What you are walking back can't fire as it has no cap/primer to ignite the black powder. Steps 9 and beyond are one at the firing bench while the weapon is pointed downrange.
#3) No food/drinks on the firing benches
This one fell under the safety issue as well. HQ felt that if you are shooting you should be focused on shooting and the handling of said firearm in your possession. Eating, drinking and smoking are potential distractions. All of those can still be done just not at the bench where you are shooting.
Our monthly eating or the garbage we make/cleanup was not an issue with this one. You can eat and drink just not while shooting.
I wonder if somewhere else alcohol drinking was involved that caused this rule. Doubt it as I suspect the rule would have mentioned no alcohol.
#4) No rapid fire (1 sec delay between shoots)
We did not discuss this rule as it's not a new rule. It has been in place since f-o-r-e-v-e-r but not always enforced.
See number 5 on why we are now seeing it enforced.
#5) Change of operating hours
The change in hours came from a liability issue. HQ wants all ranges to be open ONLY when a RO can be physical present and watching the ranges. Due to budget issues DNR went with a fixed schedule, ie 40hr work week. So the shorting of hours. The WED & THR closed range is to keep the work week to 5 days for the ROs. Since they are open SAT & SUN 2 other days had to be chosen for days off. Those 2 days were the least used days based on prior data.
Note that each of the DNR ranges got to choose which days to close.
With the RO now being at the range all the time rule #4 which was/was not always imposed as no RO was around is now being felt more and more by the people that go to the range.
#6) No holstered weapons
When I started to talk to Tom about this rule he started off by saying that he personally does not agree with this rule. That he was not asked for input on this rule nor was Mr. Green. He feels that the safety place for a loaded handgun is on a holster. This again came from HQ without any prior warning/conversations. What he was told was 2 things.
- The DNR RO has no way of knowing if the firearm is loaded/unloaded thus this posses a safety issue
- NRA owed ranges (nationwide) have this rule in place so Indiana DNR adopted it as well
I can not find anything online about the NRA angle. I do know we have some NRA instructors here who may be able to shed some light on this. I suspect HQ is lying on this one. But can those with NRA connections chime in.
NEXT STEPS
I know some here will just post to complain that they will no longer visit WINAMAC or any DNR range, others will provide some helpful comments and some will just read this and do nothing else. That is fine as it's INGO after all.
Tom suggested I talk to Tom Despot (who was the 1st WINAMAC Manager back when NWI INGO started going and whom we inititally did YOUTH DAY with). Tom has gotten several promotions since he left WINAMAC and is now the Indiana North Region Land Manager. Think regional manager type. I will be talking to him AFTER the youth event and once I get some clarification on the NRA ranges no holster stuff. So that is one more DNR person on our side.
What I suspect we will need to get our Indiana senators involved in particular Senator Jim Tomes (Sen. Jim Tomes - Indiana State Senate District 49) who is VERY PRO-2A and was responsible for the recent PRO-2A laws (ie. firearms allowed on school parking lot in car). Plus
Senator Ed Charbonneau (District 5 where WINAMAC is at)
Right now NWI has a bigger issue with a county trying to ban the shooting of firearms on private property
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...en-firearms-owners-other-property-owners.html
But rest assure we will need help with this DNR rule changes as well.
UPDATE 1 - JUNE 17, 2017
I was able to talk face to face with Tom Despot who is the Region North Manager (Winamac is under his supervision; He is Winamac's boss and in turn he reports to Indy). He was at today's NWI INGO/WINAMAC DNR Youth Event. The issue of the no holstered sidearms comes down to liability.
WINAMAC has be blessed in that it have never had a reported shooting accident in all the years it has been operational. Sadly that is not the case with other DNR facilities in the state especially in southern Indiana. This year so far there have been 2 reported shooting accidents at DNR ranges in southern Indiana. DNR HQ's concern is that these and other incidents like it will bring someone to sue them due to unsafe range conditions. I'm not an ATTY and one can argue all day that it is NOT the state's fault that person A shot person B while person B was downrange changing a target when person A decided to handle their firearm at the bench. We have all see this happen at the state ranges and we have all done a variety of things to ensure it does not occur when we are around. (ie. NWI INGO just takes over the 25 yard range and we "police" ourselves to ensure hot/cold range, etc.)
Why would person B sue the state of Indiana and not person A (the person who accidentally shot them)? Who has the deeper pockets? The state off course. So DNR HQ is trying to mitigate this risk. Worse case scenario for them is Person B does sue them and they lose and the state pays out $$$. Next thing the state legislature is going to do is ask why do we have state ranges if they are going to cost us $$$ in civil suits. Just shut them all down and no more worries. This is exactly what DNR HQ is trying to avoid.
So why the rule? Well in the ideal world DNR HQ would like to put 1 RO for every bench they have on the range so that everyone is watched 24/7 and there are zero accidents. Financially that is impossible. At WINAMAC alone it would require a staff of 13 for all the benches. So the more fiscal approach is one RO for all 4 ranches and that RO's job is to make sure everyone is safe and not handling firearms when people are downrange. The quickest and easiest way for the RO to do that is knowing no one is carrying so the only firearms would be those on the benches. Makes life much easier to see if anyone is about to touch a weapon.
So why the rule NOW in 2017? Well as stated above they have had recorded incidents of shooting accidents at some of the ranges. The other thing they have begun to see is a lot more "new NEW" gun owners. People who literally have just come from walmart with their first rifle, a box of ammo and are shooting for the first time. Recall your first time shooting. Did you know all the safety rules? Did you know range dos/donots especially with other people (strangers) on the benches next to you?
The influx of new shooters has been seen mainly at the modern ranges (ie. deer creek, willow slew, Kingsburry) where ROs man the places 24/7 like hawks. But as those new ranges have become popular and over crowded the smaller ranges like WINAMAC which where once just used by deer hunters who were sighting in their rifles are beginning to see more and more "city folks" and "1st time shooters" who are not familiar with all the rules.
So that is the detailed deeper explanation by the regional manager who is in charge of NORTH Indiana. He did not make the rule it came from DNR HQ in Indy. At first he too was very upset about the rule but the more he thought about it and the goal of not having any accidental shootings like southern Indiana has had the more he agrees with it in the fact that it helps control where the firearms are at so the ROs have an easier time ensuring no one is handling weapons when people are downrange.
So the next question is "Is this legal? Are they stepping on my rights? What if I refuse?"
Like I said I'm not an ATTY but my take is this DNR rule is similar to "court rules" in that it is NOT illegal (ie. you are not breaking a law) by taking a firearm inside a court house. You are breaking a courthouse rule and you will be held in contempt of court and the judge can fine you, toss you in jail or make you do something else (community service, etc..) But again we need some of our INGO ATTYs to look into this more.
What happens if you refuse?
Well it is going to go something like this.
INGO member Joe arrives at DNR range OC his GLOCK.
DNR RO is going to inform Joe of the rules and to obey them.
Joe refuses to obey the rules. RO is going to call DNR LEO (ie. game warden)
DNR LEO is going to tell Joe the rules and to obey them.
Joe refuses to obey the rules. DNR LEO is going to cite Joe for breaking the DNR rules.
(ie. a ticket similar to a speeding ticket)
DNR LEO is also going to tell Joe he must leave the range now or be arrested for trespassing.
Joe leaves with his citation or Joe gets arrested.
Also the citation is going to allow DNR manager to say Joe can NOT return to DNR range for XYZ time due to rule infraction.
Now I do not know the legality of all this above. Again that is for our INGO ATTYs or an INGO members to figure out.
What I do know is that at time point INDY DNR is not going to change this rule due to their fear of being sued and then losing all the ranges.
So if we want this rule changes it will require our legislatures to get involved. It will require us going to our reps about this.
It will do you no good to just go and complain to your senator. What solution do you propose will fix this?
Ie. some type of agreement where you use the range at your own risk? So that you can't sue the state for what Person B does to you while you and Person B are on the range because Person B has no gun safety in mind. ??? I don't known but I do know that we need potential solutions to bring to our reps in order for this to move forward. Our reps are not just going to tackle this problem alone.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...on/374248-attn-range-nazis-3.html#post7092987
Short summary is an INGO member was shocked about a slew of new rules s/he found at WINAMAC DNR and how the RO was being overly active in enforcing them.
The new rules are as follows (in no particular order)
#1) No 50 MBG
#2) No loading of muzzle loaders on the firing benches
#3) No food/drinks on the firing benches
#4) No rapid fire (1 sec delay between shoots)
#5) Change of operating hours
#6) No holstered weapons
NWI INGO social group has an 8 year history with WINNAMC DNR and for the past 5 years we have partnered with them to do the NWI INGO/DNR WINAMAC YOUTH EVENT (This year's event will be sat 17 JUN 17). I was finally able to talk to our POC at DNR regarding all these changes.
Tony Carroll (now DNR manager for Kankakee State Fish and Wildlife Area) provided me with a summary of the changes that occurred WHILE he was the manger of WINAMAC DNR. The current manager Doug Green had NOTHING to do with the changes. He has been the manager for under a month. All the new rules came from a directive from DNR Headquarters in Indy. The local managers were not asked for input, just informed of the new changes.
I will address each one in the order I posted them.
#1) No 50 BMG
The DNR ranges were not designed to handle the .50 BMG round and the backstops/berms have taken some heavy damage from the use of this round. So the decision to not allow the .50 BMG at all ranges not designed to handle the round has been imposed. I asked Tom if he knew of any state ranges where the 50 was allowed. Tom could only speak for WINAMAC. However the only 2 "modern" rangers that he mentioned were Willow Slew or Deer Creek. "Modern" as in redone/upgraded in the past 5 years. I checked the website for DeerCreek and it does not allow .50 MBG (It looks like Kingsubry only bigger and I think is run by private contractor - GUY from INGO maybe??)
#2) No loading of muzzle loaders on the firing benches
This stems from a liability and safety issue. HQ felt that having both the black power and cap/primer at the firing bench could cause and ignition and fire.
No report of it occurring at WINAMAC; Unknown if it had occurred at other DNR locations. So to avoid this issue a separate "black powder loading area" was designated for all the ranges. Basically a small stand at the far right of the firing benches where you load the black powder and then you walk your weapon back to the firing range.
I asked what about the safety of walking a loaded rifle behind others from the powder bench to the firing bench. The rule is one ONLY loads the black powder NOT the cap/primer at the loading bench.
See this link for the steps in loading blackpowder.
https://www.hunter-ed.com/oregon/st...ing-an-In-Line-Muzzleloader/201038_700020850/
So basically steps 1 - 8 are done at the small loading bench. Then you walk the weapon back to the firing bench. What you are walking back can't fire as it has no cap/primer to ignite the black powder. Steps 9 and beyond are one at the firing bench while the weapon is pointed downrange.
#3) No food/drinks on the firing benches
This one fell under the safety issue as well. HQ felt that if you are shooting you should be focused on shooting and the handling of said firearm in your possession. Eating, drinking and smoking are potential distractions. All of those can still be done just not at the bench where you are shooting.
Our monthly eating or the garbage we make/cleanup was not an issue with this one. You can eat and drink just not while shooting.
I wonder if somewhere else alcohol drinking was involved that caused this rule. Doubt it as I suspect the rule would have mentioned no alcohol.
#4) No rapid fire (1 sec delay between shoots)
We did not discuss this rule as it's not a new rule. It has been in place since f-o-r-e-v-e-r but not always enforced.
See number 5 on why we are now seeing it enforced.
#5) Change of operating hours
The change in hours came from a liability issue. HQ wants all ranges to be open ONLY when a RO can be physical present and watching the ranges. Due to budget issues DNR went with a fixed schedule, ie 40hr work week. So the shorting of hours. The WED & THR closed range is to keep the work week to 5 days for the ROs. Since they are open SAT & SUN 2 other days had to be chosen for days off. Those 2 days were the least used days based on prior data.
Note that each of the DNR ranges got to choose which days to close.
With the RO now being at the range all the time rule #4 which was/was not always imposed as no RO was around is now being felt more and more by the people that go to the range.
#6) No holstered weapons
When I started to talk to Tom about this rule he started off by saying that he personally does not agree with this rule. That he was not asked for input on this rule nor was Mr. Green. He feels that the safety place for a loaded handgun is on a holster. This again came from HQ without any prior warning/conversations. What he was told was 2 things.
- The DNR RO has no way of knowing if the firearm is loaded/unloaded thus this posses a safety issue
- NRA owed ranges (nationwide) have this rule in place so Indiana DNR adopted it as well
I can not find anything online about the NRA angle. I do know we have some NRA instructors here who may be able to shed some light on this. I suspect HQ is lying on this one. But can those with NRA connections chime in.
NEXT STEPS
I know some here will just post to complain that they will no longer visit WINAMAC or any DNR range, others will provide some helpful comments and some will just read this and do nothing else. That is fine as it's INGO after all.
Tom suggested I talk to Tom Despot (who was the 1st WINAMAC Manager back when NWI INGO started going and whom we inititally did YOUTH DAY with). Tom has gotten several promotions since he left WINAMAC and is now the Indiana North Region Land Manager. Think regional manager type. I will be talking to him AFTER the youth event and once I get some clarification on the NRA ranges no holster stuff. So that is one more DNR person on our side.
What I suspect we will need to get our Indiana senators involved in particular Senator Jim Tomes (Sen. Jim Tomes - Indiana State Senate District 49) who is VERY PRO-2A and was responsible for the recent PRO-2A laws (ie. firearms allowed on school parking lot in car). Plus
Senator Ed Charbonneau (District 5 where WINAMAC is at)
Right now NWI has a bigger issue with a county trying to ban the shooting of firearms on private property
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...en-firearms-owners-other-property-owners.html
But rest assure we will need help with this DNR rule changes as well.
UPDATE 1 - JUNE 17, 2017
I was able to talk face to face with Tom Despot who is the Region North Manager (Winamac is under his supervision; He is Winamac's boss and in turn he reports to Indy). He was at today's NWI INGO/WINAMAC DNR Youth Event. The issue of the no holstered sidearms comes down to liability.
WINAMAC has be blessed in that it have never had a reported shooting accident in all the years it has been operational. Sadly that is not the case with other DNR facilities in the state especially in southern Indiana. This year so far there have been 2 reported shooting accidents at DNR ranges in southern Indiana. DNR HQ's concern is that these and other incidents like it will bring someone to sue them due to unsafe range conditions. I'm not an ATTY and one can argue all day that it is NOT the state's fault that person A shot person B while person B was downrange changing a target when person A decided to handle their firearm at the bench. We have all see this happen at the state ranges and we have all done a variety of things to ensure it does not occur when we are around. (ie. NWI INGO just takes over the 25 yard range and we "police" ourselves to ensure hot/cold range, etc.)
Why would person B sue the state of Indiana and not person A (the person who accidentally shot them)? Who has the deeper pockets? The state off course. So DNR HQ is trying to mitigate this risk. Worse case scenario for them is Person B does sue them and they lose and the state pays out $$$. Next thing the state legislature is going to do is ask why do we have state ranges if they are going to cost us $$$ in civil suits. Just shut them all down and no more worries. This is exactly what DNR HQ is trying to avoid.
So why the rule? Well in the ideal world DNR HQ would like to put 1 RO for every bench they have on the range so that everyone is watched 24/7 and there are zero accidents. Financially that is impossible. At WINAMAC alone it would require a staff of 13 for all the benches. So the more fiscal approach is one RO for all 4 ranches and that RO's job is to make sure everyone is safe and not handling firearms when people are downrange. The quickest and easiest way for the RO to do that is knowing no one is carrying so the only firearms would be those on the benches. Makes life much easier to see if anyone is about to touch a weapon.
So why the rule NOW in 2017? Well as stated above they have had recorded incidents of shooting accidents at some of the ranges. The other thing they have begun to see is a lot more "new NEW" gun owners. People who literally have just come from walmart with their first rifle, a box of ammo and are shooting for the first time. Recall your first time shooting. Did you know all the safety rules? Did you know range dos/donots especially with other people (strangers) on the benches next to you?
The influx of new shooters has been seen mainly at the modern ranges (ie. deer creek, willow slew, Kingsburry) where ROs man the places 24/7 like hawks. But as those new ranges have become popular and over crowded the smaller ranges like WINAMAC which where once just used by deer hunters who were sighting in their rifles are beginning to see more and more "city folks" and "1st time shooters" who are not familiar with all the rules.
So that is the detailed deeper explanation by the regional manager who is in charge of NORTH Indiana. He did not make the rule it came from DNR HQ in Indy. At first he too was very upset about the rule but the more he thought about it and the goal of not having any accidental shootings like southern Indiana has had the more he agrees with it in the fact that it helps control where the firearms are at so the ROs have an easier time ensuring no one is handling weapons when people are downrange.
So the next question is "Is this legal? Are they stepping on my rights? What if I refuse?"
Like I said I'm not an ATTY but my take is this DNR rule is similar to "court rules" in that it is NOT illegal (ie. you are not breaking a law) by taking a firearm inside a court house. You are breaking a courthouse rule and you will be held in contempt of court and the judge can fine you, toss you in jail or make you do something else (community service, etc..) But again we need some of our INGO ATTYs to look into this more.
What happens if you refuse?
Well it is going to go something like this.
INGO member Joe arrives at DNR range OC his GLOCK.
DNR RO is going to inform Joe of the rules and to obey them.
Joe refuses to obey the rules. RO is going to call DNR LEO (ie. game warden)
DNR LEO is going to tell Joe the rules and to obey them.
Joe refuses to obey the rules. DNR LEO is going to cite Joe for breaking the DNR rules.
(ie. a ticket similar to a speeding ticket)
DNR LEO is also going to tell Joe he must leave the range now or be arrested for trespassing.
Joe leaves with his citation or Joe gets arrested.
Also the citation is going to allow DNR manager to say Joe can NOT return to DNR range for XYZ time due to rule infraction.
Now I do not know the legality of all this above. Again that is for our INGO ATTYs or an INGO members to figure out.
What I do know is that at time point INDY DNR is not going to change this rule due to their fear of being sued and then losing all the ranges.
So if we want this rule changes it will require our legislatures to get involved. It will require us going to our reps about this.
It will do you no good to just go and complain to your senator. What solution do you propose will fix this?
Ie. some type of agreement where you use the range at your own risk? So that you can't sue the state for what Person B does to you while you and Person B are on the range because Person B has no gun safety in mind. ??? I don't known but I do know that we need potential solutions to bring to our reps in order for this to move forward. Our reps are not just going to tackle this problem alone.
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