M4 Carbine improvement program

[shooter521]

Army wants soldiers to have improved carbine - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

Looks like it's a "go". The latest batch of 12,000 M4s in production will be upgraded to M4A1s, with full-auto trigger groups instead of burst, the SOCOM heavy barrel, and ambidextrous controls. "Conversion kits" will be used to upgrade another 65,000 M4s already in service.

Next phase will be an open competition for an improved bolt/carrier assembly and possible revisions to the handguard rail.

Final phase, to begin in about 18 months, will be an improved gas system or piston conversion.

This is running concurrently with the Individual Carbine competition, for which the RFP will be sent out early next year.

 

[alfahornet]

Great Post. Thanks for sharing.

 

[CandRFan]

Cool read...thanks!

Now, I've got no real world experience...only what I've read from links here in INGO. The article mentioned an improved round, M855A1, to deliver more stopping power at shorter distances. Would this round also help with punching through cover as well? Or since the shooting is supposed to be done in Iraq will this not be as much a concern anymore because in Afghanistan the fighting isn't as urban as it was in Iraq?

 

[shooter521]

The article mentioned an improved round, M855A1, to deliver more stopping power at shorter distances. Would this round also help with punching through cover as well?

The writing in the Army Times piece leaves much to be desired. The M855A1 was primarily designed to conform to requirements for a leadless round. The fact that it offers improved performance over M855 is just gravy. I don't think anyone in their right mind (except maybe the Army Times author) believes M855A1 will be the Fist of God, while M855 was a wet noodle.

Here's the dope:
Tactical-Life.com M855A1 “green” ammo shipped to Afghanistan.

 

[thompal]

Army wants soldiers to have improved carbine - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

Looks like it's a "go". The latest batch of 12,000 M4s in production will be upgraded to M4A1s, with full-auto trigger groups instead of burst, the SOCOM heavy barrel, and ambidextrous controls. "Conversion kits" will be used to upgrade another 65,000 M4s already in service.

It's interesting that they're going back to a full-auto version. Are the arguments for a burst-mode invalid now?

 

[Slow Hand]

So, does this mean we'll be seeing thousands of decent M4 barrels for sale for $20 apiece?

 

[trophyhunter]

So, does this mean we'll be seeing thousands of decent M4 barrels for sale for $20 apiece?

IIRC, those barrels are shorter than 16"? Make for some nice SBR builds.

 

[VERT]

It's interesting that they're going back to a full-auto version. Are the arguments for a burst-mode invalid now?

I am curious. What is the advantage of having a full auto trigger group? I would think that a three shot burst would be more useful in a close quarters environment. But I honestly do not know or have any experience in such matters.

 

[shooter521]

I am curious. What is the advantage of having a full auto trigger group? I would think that a three shot burst would be more useful in a close quarters environment.

A couple big issues with the 3-shot burst group:

1) it results in a long, heavy trigger pull that gets progressively worse in semi-auto - first shot is heavy, second shot is heavier, 3rd shot is heavier still, then it resets

2) burst mode has a "memory" - if you let off the trigger early (after 1 or 2 rounds) or are down to the last couple rounds in your magazine, the next trigger pull only gets you the balance (2 or 1 rounds, whatever adds up to 3). Your next pull after that would get you a full burst.

To say nothing of the fact that a full-auto trigger group lets the operator choose how many rounds he wants to put out. Maybe he needs one or two, maybe he needs 8 or 10 or a mag dump. I'm not a fan of the hardware deciding what the shooter's needs are (you'll not find red dot sights with the auto brightness "feature" on any of my guns, either).

My

 

[Grizhicks]

I just found my ideal job; having worked in government contracts for the past 25 years, I would love to be the Army's contracting officer for this effort. It would be a blast!!!

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

A couple big issues with the 3-shot burst group:

1) it results in a long, heavy trigger pull that gets progressively worse in semi-auto - first shot is heavy, second shot is heavier, 3rd shot is heavier still, then it resets

2) burst mode has a "memory" - if you let off the trigger early (after 1 or 2 rounds) or are down to the last couple rounds in your magazine, the next trigger pull only gets you the balance (2 or 1 rounds, whatever adds up to 3). Your next pull after that would get you a full burst.

To say nothing of the fact that a full-auto trigger group lets the operator choose how many rounds he wants to put out. Maybe he needs one or two, maybe he needs 8 or 10 or a mag dump. I'm not a fan of the hardware deciding what the shooter's needs are (you'll not find red dot sights with the auto brightness "feature" on any of my guns, either).

My

The earlier Vietnam-era M16s.... Those had semi/burst/auto, right?

The newer versions just had semi/burst?

I could SWEAR that my brother-in-law's M16 (department-issued) has the 3?

-J-

 

[cosermann]

Funny sentence from the article: "Soldiers will experience fewer jams, thanks to a new magazine that doesn’t allow rounds to move, he said."

Got it. No feed no jam I guess. Wonder what he was trying to say.

 

[Jeremiah]

WHEN WILL THEY LEARN. They need to get away from the craptastic AR platform and issue HK MP10's with suppressors and collapsable stocks, at least then I could get cheap 10mm :-(

 

[Airborne33]

Hmm. I like three round burst. Full auto is a bit much for most situations. We went away from it in Nam for a reason.

 

[mammynun]

Hmm. I like three round burst. Full auto is a bit much for most situations. We went away from it in Nam for a reason.

I'm with Shooter, I like(d) to be able to choose instead of having the weapon choose for me. I usually got "fussed" at for qualifying on the M-60 using "1 round bursts." It left me more ammo to play with after qualifying...

 

[shooter521]

The earlier Vietnam-era M16s.... Those had semi/burst/auto, right?

No; the M-16 and M-16A1 were safe/semi/auto

The newer versions just had semi/burst?

M-16A2s, M-16A4s and M4 carbines are safe/semi/burst; M-16A3s (Navy only) and M4A1 carbines are safe/semi/auto

I could SWEAR that my brother-in-law's M16 (department-issued) has the 3?

May well be; there are some aftermarket trigger kits that allow safe/semi/burst/auto when installed in an M-16.

 

[Slow Hand]

While I can see a possible benefit under the stress of combat in not emptying your rifle with one long squeeze, I too prefer full auto to a burst. My AC-556 has the three round burst, and about the only time it gets used in .223 is when letting first timers shoot it. It's comforting to know if they get excited and forget to let off, it won't go climbing too high before it stops! It's ROF is about 750 RPM so it's pretty easy to squeeze off two rounds. I jokingly call it my auto double tap! A quick pull and release is two rounds. Pull, pause and release is three. Pull and hold for an empty magazine! If I'm really hitting it fast, I can get singles out of it on full auto. Now, sith the .22LR kit, the three round burst is almost madatory! 1200+ RPM and a 30 round mag goes empty VERY fast!

 

[akaindy]

There have been developments of triggers for the m16 in safe/semi/burst/auto but none of them as far as I've read or seen have been fielded. Most are just patents. Its good to see them going back to safe/semi/auto. The burst trigger was more complicated, delicate and as shooter mentioned it throw off the pull and had a memory.

Its also good to see them going to the heavier barrel profile. The goverment profile was really too skinny and under heavy use would over heat quickly. They will also need the heavy profile if they go to a piston system which will prevent vertical shoot stringing as the barrel heats up. This was a problem with the old AR-18 platform the as the barrel would heat up the shots would string vertically because the pistol would flex the barrel more once the barrel got how. Heavier barrels prevents this.

 

[jblomenberg16]

In a related story, thousands of ARFCOM members (and INGO, and Chatterbox, etc) began calling various manufacturers inquiring as to parts availability to convert their "M4geries" into "M4A1geries."


My money is the Mvician or the "guy with the blue couch" on ARFCOM will be the first to have them!

 

[mvician]

In a related story, thousands of ARFCOM members (and INGO, and Chatterbox, etc) began calling various manufacturers inquiring as to parts availability to convert their "M4geries" into "M4A1geries."


My money is the mvician or the "guy with the blue couch" on ARFCOM will be the first to have them!

I already have a SOCOM (heavy M4 barrel) have had it for a few years now. These barrels have been around for some time, about 10yrs or so IIRC. I have an ambi selector on it, and they can keep a piston conversion.