The problem here is that the police have already lied multiple times. Their shields were riddled with bullets, they saw a muzzle flash and fired on it, what else? Dupnik continues spewing crap about Guerena's having been part of a violent organization, that he expected to be arrested for murder, but the cops' lawyer states that nobody would've been arrested had the police entered peacefully, and the search warrant affidavit paints a picture of a man guilty of no more than being seen in the company of a brother, who had drug violations... the credibility of the police is now nonexistent.This is the main problem with this (and similar) situations. You have absolutely zero proof (or reasonable suspicion even)that the cops planted the gun after shooting Jose or that the orders they followed were illegal. The cops have absolutely no proof either that Jose pointed the gun at them. This thread basically comes down to "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened." And then somebody else says "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened."
Agreed with this. It would settle the question nicely.Did they have helmet cams or other similar devices on when they entered? If so, let's see it.
You're a cop entering the house on a raid...you know the suspect is an Iraq war veterain Marine. You bust through the door with your firearm at the ready position. Next thing you see is Jose coming around the corner with his rifle in hand at the low-ready position(hypothetically speaking since many doubt he ever pointed the rifle at the cops).
What is your move? Do you check to see if the safety is on/off? Do you hope he doesn't raise the weapon and shoot you in the blink of an eye...because he will before you can even get a shot back(action beats re-action). You might kill him shooting back, but he might already have killed you as well. Do you shout for him to drop the weapon, because as you're saying drop...you might be catching bullets in the teeth.
So armchair quarterbacks, what say you?
If you're answer is anything but shoot the guy with a rifle then you might just be dead.
I am claiming the fact that the rifle was on-safe is COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT. All of you guys puffing out your chest and shouting "Marine", "trained Marine", "United States Marine", "need I say more", etc. are not facing the realities that this "trained Marine" could raise the gun while flipping off the safety and put round(s) into your head before you could react fast enough to shoot back.
If the police come through the door and the gun isn't falling or already on the ground...expect to get shot.
Re-read my post, I said it was in his hand at the low-ready position(hypothetically speaking since many doubt he ever pointed the rifle at the cops).Nowhere does it say this United States Marine pointed his weapon at them and nowhere is it ever implied since his weapon was on safe.
People are claiming they didn't know he was a Marine. I don't know for sure...can anyone cite something?You know that these days 99% of all Marines have seen combat and are more than capable of shooting an enemy.
All you or I know what actually happened is on the video...have you watched it? My scenereo starts as soon as the cop enters the door. Unless you are denying the fact that Jose had a gun in his hands then it is the scenario that the police were presented with inside the house.Your fault with your statement here is that you don't care what actually happened.
The police are the only ones talking after the incident. We can't get Jose's side to this. But I guess you can claim, blindly so, that he must not have pointed the weapon because he was a Marine. I don't know either way since I wasn't there, were you?You take the words of the police who busted down someone's door without identifying themselves properly before entry over the man who was killed and fought to defend that exact right.
Do I know they are the cops? (we don't know if Jose did or not)So "hypothetically" speaking I think you should turn your little scenario over and put yourself into this Marine's boots during this situation as well. WTF would you do if someone was breaking into your home?
If I knew for sure that it was the cops I would set down my weapon, or not grab it in the first place(that would be the safest thing, clearly). If I thought it was a home invasion I would be defending myself and my family.You're on a gun forum for a reason Bucko so obviously you're going to say you'd grab your weapon and hope for the best. Right? Otherwise I think you're in the wrong place.
this in my opinion is the main problem, almost all you cops will rally blindly behind cops you have never met and assume they are telling the truth just because your in the same line of work. thats the biggest bunch of BS ive ever seen. I dont think he was pointing a gun at them, i do think they planted it. I do wish the total outcome would have been different with him walking out.This is the main problem with this (and similar) situations. You have absolutely zero proof (or reasonable suspicion even)that the cops planted the gun after shooting Jose or that the orders they followed were illegal. The cops have absolutely no proof either that Jose pointed the gun at them. This thread basically comes down to "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened." And then somebody else says "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened."
Did they have helmet cams or other similar devices on when they entered? If so, let's see it.
this in my opinion is the main problem, almost all you cops will rally blindly behind cops you have never met and assume they are telling the truth just because your in the same line of work. thats the biggest bunch of BS ive ever seen. I dont think he was pointing a gun at them, i do think they planted it. I do wish the total outcome would have been different with him walking out.
People are claiming they didn't know he was a Marine. I don't know for sure...can anyone cite something?
All you or I know what actually happened is on the video...have you watched it? My scenereo starts as soon as the cop enters the door. Unless you are denying the fact that Jose had a gun in his hands then it is the scenario that the police were presented with inside the house.
The police are the only ones talking after the incident. We can't get Jose's side to this. But I guess you can claim, blindly so, that he must not have pointed the weapon because he was a Marine. I don't know either way since I wasn't there, were you?
Do I know they are the cops? (we don't know if Jose did or not)
If I knew for sure that it was the cops I would set down my weapon, or not grab it in the first place(that would be the safest thing, clearly).
People claimed that the team itself did not know he was a Marine. Can you provide evidence of what the team knew, I haven't seen any only speculation.They have to do a background check before they can get a warrant correct? Obviously it's going to state some military service. If not, they didn't do a check and most likely didn't have a warrant.
I made up no "scenario"...again, reading comprehension.We don't need scenario's. What information you get from the video is useless. I've seen the youtube video and it doesn't show inside the home. Thus making it irrelevant, not only that but making up scenario's is just utter incompetence.
And they may be right. But if you are facing a swat team and your weapon isn't falling to or already on the floor expect to get shot.There's a reason all of these service men on here are telling you that he did not point that weapon at them while the weapon was on safe. That's because we're all trained to put that weapons system in "go" mode as it's raised.
Again, there was no scenario outside of what happened(inless you're going to claim that he didn't have a gun in his hands). I am not going to blindly take the side of either guy in uniform like you are. Much respect for Marines and Cops...but not blind admiration.Obviously I wasn't there, but neither were you so maybe you should do exactly what you're implying and stop with the little "scenario" bull**** and taking the cops side. Try sticking up for the man who put his life on the line to give you this right to disgrace his name while he is buried, without any evidential facts that it was justified.
You just chastized me for "taking the cops side"As I stated before, I'm obviously not defending the police nor am I saying they are lying.
Marines must be off limits from police action.but something is wrong if SWAT actually gets a court order to break into a Marine's home.
The police announced their presense outside their home prior to entry, there is debate to if they did it well enough and if Jose got the message that the cops were outside. Did you even watch the video. Try and educate yourself some prior to forming an opinion.Obviously if you're in his shoes you don't know they are cops... just as he didn't.
Whatch the video...with the sound on.It's called a no-knock warrant for a reason *put stupid man insult here*
Kind of like the way you rally against the cops? And make up your own version of what you think happened, "assume they are not telling the truth just because" they are cops.
Planted gun, really now. Is the wife claiming that he didn't have a gun in his hands, or one at all in the house, or that the police planted a weapon. Please point me to the interview or quotes from her saying such things?
Don't dodge the question. You claimed you would disobey this warrant since you felt it was illegal. Explain the process you would have yourself, and each of your fellow SWAT team members, go through in order to determine if the order was legal or not?
Yes you did. You said you would disobey the un-lawful order.I never dodged the question. SWAT is not needed to serve warrants, pretty simple.
What, is it really so difficult to understand? We're not questioning them because they're cops. We're questioning them because they already lied again and again!!Kind of like the way you rally against the cops? And make up your own version of what you think happened, "assume they are not telling the truth just because" they are cops.
Ok, but can you say 100% that they are lying in this case?What is so hard to understand?
The cops in this case are now KNOWN LIARS.
That is not an assumption!
Agreed.They themselves have brought suspicion on their own words.
This IS an assumption.The planted gun in this case is totaly plausable.
its my duty as a good citizen to never take what the govt tells me at face value and fact. especially given their tract record at lying to the people. when we start doing that people start/continue abusing granted authority.Kind of like the way you rally against the cops? And make up your own version of what you think happened, "assume they are not telling the truth just because" they are cops.
Planted gun, really now. Is the wife claiming that he didn't have a gun in his hands, or one at all in the house, or that the police planted a weapon. Please point me to the interview or quotes from her saying such things?
These questions are now leaps to planting guns, gotcha.What, is it really so difficult to understand? We're not questioning them because they're cops. We're questioning them because they already lied again and again!!
These questions are now leaps to planting guns, gotcha.
You are saying that since they are liars that they:
(1) Opened fire on an un-armed man
(2) Shot that un-armed man 20+(?) times
(3) planted a gun
(4) with the safety off
(5) while the wife is not claiming that it isn't his gun or that it was planted
Rock on
Rock onThese questions are now leaps to planting guns, gotcha.
You are saying that since they are liars that they:
(1) Opened fire on an un-armed man Just because a man is armed does not mean you get to shoot him.
(2) Shot that un-armed man 20+(?) times I bet only one officer had good enough view for sight picture. The rest just emptied their mags in a panic or "get me some" mentality
(3) planted a gun You saying this never happens?
(4) with the safety off - Again this proves incompetence.
(5) while the wife is not claiming that it isn't his gun or that it was planted No she claimed she did not know about it.
Rock on