Lessons learned in the GPM shooting

[bwframe]

From another forum... Just repeating what was said there, so it's not confirmed...

This photo is supposed to be the location it went down. Supposedly Eli was standing behind the pillar, and the shooter was just outside the bathroom corridor in the background. It's said, the police report states 76 feet despite all the "40 yd" internet talk. Of course, it may be some time till all the details are released, and no telling if this is correct either.
Either way... still an amazing feat of skill, and bravery.

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When I first saw that picture, I thought that really didn't look like 40 yards.

25 yards is no gimme shot either though. I've watched competition guys (myself included,) miss 25 yard targets twice in a row, with no more pressure than a timer on them. Nobody shooting back, for sure.


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[bwframe]

It may be too early to put this on the board -- and note I'm certainly not against good formal training -- and and and I am putting on my nomex underpants now because I can predict some of the responses I may provoke -- but the whole, "If you can't go to Gun Site quarterly with your custom <whatever brand/model> in <whatever caliber> you might as well not carry..." mentality will hopefully be tempered a bit. I think the VC and Taliban proved an idiot with a gun can be quite effective if he is motivated AND gets the drop on you.

Would it be awesome to do go to training with a big name monthly/quarterly? Hell yes!

Can most people afford the $$$ and time to do it? Hell no!

Competence, tactics and mindset, as mentioned above.

Posted with love and brotherhood for all my more well heeled compatriots here.

The solution to your training problem is to not overthink it.

Train with local trainers, a lot of which have brought back techniques from those high dollar national names that we have trouble affording. Work out an equitable deal with local trainers.

There are ways to go about cutting costs that your local part time trainer can possibly help you out with. IE, a location where the trainer does not have to pay for the range, dividing costs at small group rates and accommodating your schedule to their schedule in short stints, (maybe evening hour or two after work?)

The benefit of the trainer, be it Travis Haley or be it rhino, is their eyes on you critiquing your actions. Their experienced advice to you is what cannot be duplicated watching videos, shooting with friends or practice on your own.


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[ditcherman]

The solution to your training problem is to not overthink it.

Train with local trainers, a lot of which have brought back techniques from those high dollar national names that we have trouble affording. Work out an equitable deal with local trainers.

There are ways to go about cutting costs that your local part time trainer can possibly help you out with. IE, a location where the trainer does not have to pay for the range, dividing costs at small group rates and accommodating your schedule to their schedule in short stints, (maybe evening hour or two after work?)

The benefit of the trainer, be it Travis Haley or be it rhino, is their eyes on you critiquing your actions. Their experienced advice to you is what cannot be duplicated watching videos, shooting with friends or practice on your own.


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Concerning eyes on, I have set up my iPad on a tripod to film myself, and learned a lot. You can scroll through the frames and see movements and small details pretty good.
I think it’s a huge help.

 

[88E30M50]

Concerning eyes on, I have set up my iPad on a tripod to film myself, and learned a lot. You can scroll through the frames and see movements and small details pretty good.
I think it’s a huge help.

I've done the same with a GoPro but have not spent the time to really critique myself.

 

[Cameramonkey]

From another forum... Just repeating what was said there, so it's not confirmed...

This photo is supposed to be the location it went down. Supposedly Eli was standing behind the pillar, and the shooter was just outside the bathroom corridor in the background. It's said, the police report states 76 feet despite all the "40 yd" internet talk. Of course, it may be some time till all the details are released, and no telling if this is correct either.
Either way... still an amazing feat of skill, and bravery.

View attachment 212710

They keep petrifying the same “kid without a LTCH” bit, even though that has been debunked.

Ive doubted that distance from day 1. I think to get that distance in that food court Eli would have had to have been coming in the outside doors. I’m not sure there is any other way to get 40 yards away from the restrooms in there.

But that’s still not an easy shot. Not taking anything away from him. My beef is with the “journalists”

 

[chipbennett]

Close, but what I said was pre-Crime Lab estimates. My role was completed and I was cut loose prior to Crime Lab doing their thing.

I would also note two things can be true. A given shooting could start with a braced shot and then advancing and firing more shots. I am 100% not saying that is the case here, or that it isn't. I've only put out info that is already open source or near enough and, again, I left pretty early on so the info I had at the time I was doing my thing may have changed later.


So here's what I would say:

The first shot is the most important shot. The second is the second most important, etc. Once the bad guy knows where you are and has time to react, a shooting turns into a gunfight. You want a shooting. Especially at distance when the bad guy has the advantage of a long gun. Don't suck with what you carry, if that's an LCR or a 1911, or a Shadow 2 with a 24" magazine.

However good you are with your wondergun, somebody is that good with a pocket pistol. Worry about your skill with your equipment, not what hardware is 'the good one' That first shot needs to count and either kill or start degrading the bad guy before he can react. Stop focusing so much on the gun. The guy who LOST THE GUNFIGHT had a long gun and hundreds of rounds of ammo. The guy who WON THE GUNFIGHT was severely outgunned. What's that tell you? Surprise, speed, ferocity of attack. Focus on that. Get good at that. Be mentally prepared for that. DOING SOMETHING and gaining the initiative, then keeping that initiative until the bad guy can not effectively fight back, wins fights. If you have the element of surprise and use it properly, your odds of prevailing are huge.

Shooting on the move is a very valuable skill to have that is also hard to get solid training and frequent reps in. Gaming is a way to get that.

All the common duty calibers work. Any bullet passing the ENTIRETY of the FBI protocol is going to perform so similarly to any other bullet passing the ENTIRETY of th FBI protocol it's irrelevant. Underpenetration can make a good shot a bad one due to failure to reach important gibbly bits. Overpenetration doesn't matter until it does. Crowded situations are more likely to make that problematic. I will not carry .357 magnum Critical Duty "in town" because it will not stop in a person. Pick an FBI approved cartridge and stop worrying about it further. Spend that mental energy to get good.


Think about the after fight. Don't get smoke checked by another concerned citizen or responding officers. Constantly evaluate if you still need a gun in your hand. Use your voice effectively, communicate what is happening "that guy tried to rob the store, call police" paints a different picture of you in those seeing you for the first time then you standing there with a gun in your hand at the low ready staring at a corpse and a terrified clerk.

Communications for an event this large will be a **** show. Active shooter call will bring officers from surrounding agencies, and not everyone will even have access to the same radio channels. NEVER assume anyone knows you are the good guy. This will get you smoke checked. This was not my first active shooter scene in plain clothes. I am very very cognizant that I need to present myself in a manner that is not a threat until uniformed guys know who I am and why I'm there. Listen to commands, gun put away if possible, never turn toward a voice with a gun in your hand, etc.

@churchmouse @KellyinAvon this post needs to be pinned somewhere.

 

[KittySlayer]

Lesson learned... I may not be a hero.

While not a coward I am not sure I am brave enough to risk my life defending strangers.

I carry with the following priorities:

1. My family's safety.
2. My personal safety.
3. Other people I know (friends/coworkers) if I can do so with minimal risk.
4. Strangers who chose not to arm themselves would be a stretch and not sure I am willing to risk my life defending them. Only exception might be defenseless children.

A lot of great observations and advice in this thread. Reading through this thread and the original thread made me question myself and what I am willing and capable of doing.

 

[bobzilla]

I've been considering another double stack compact .45 like the Taurus I had. 12rd mag and it weighed less than my all steel compact ATI 3" 1911 with 7 rds

 

[Brad69]

Concerning eyes on, I have set up my iPad on a tripod to film myself, and learned a lot. You can scroll through the frames and see movements and small details pretty good.
I think it’s a huge help.

Do you have a “only fans” "?

 

[Cameramonkey]

Lesson learned... I may not be a hero.

While not a coward I am not sure I am brave enough to risk my life defending strangers.

I carry with the following priorities:

1. My family's safety.
2. My personal safety.
3. Other people I know (friends/coworkers) if I can do so with minimal risk.
4. Strangers who chose not to arm themselves would be a stretch and not sure I am willing to risk my life defending them. Only exception might be defenseless children.

A lot of great observations and advice in this thread. Reading through this thread and the original thread made me question myself and what I am willing and capable of doing.

No shame in that. Know your limits and what you are comfortable doing. Its not your job to save anyone but you and yours.

I too am not sure if I would have done what Eli did.

 

[Brad69]

Sometimes you just have to yell ” Leroooooy Jenkins “ and go for it!

1. Carry the biggest pistol you can! IMO no reason to carry anything smaller than a Shield or similar sized pistol. With 9 rounds of lung blow out 9mm!

2. Seek training I know that some cannot budget a big name shooter guy. But we have this thing called the internet you can literally watch the training. Take notes hit the range and train yourself. (Some just use the poor excuse they will buy the wife all kinds of stuff and say they don’t have the bread for training)

3. Have a talk with yourself you can win a engagement with violence of action. Do you have the sentiment to engage a nut case? Is your pistol a talisman? Will you only use it if you are backed into a corner?

 

[2A_Tom]

As others have said, I have no idea what I will do if ever faced with this type situation.

I do know what I have done in the past.

I think, that I will be so p***** off in a situation like this that I will just go for it.

 

[bobzilla]

As others have said, I have no idea what I will do if ever faced with this type situation.

I do know what I have done in the past.

I think, that I will be so p***** off in a situation like this that I will just go for it.

10 years ago self preservation would have likely taken over. I’m not sure much of that is left in me anymore. Not that I’m suicidal or want to end it all in a blaze of glory. Quite the opposite. But I refuse to be terrorized and scared to live my life. We all gotta go sometime. If I can save innocents and take a mother ****er out with me that sounds better than second guessing myself the rest of my life

 

[chipbennett]

10 years ago self preservation would have likely taken over. I’m not sure much of that is left in me anymore. Not that I’m suicidal or want to end it all in a blaze of glory. Quite the opposite. But I refuse to be terrorized and scared to live my life. We all gotta go sometime. If I can save innocents and take a mother ****er out with me that sounds better than second guessing myself the rest of my life

I might have felt differently at 25 than I do at 45. Now, I have primary responsibility as husband and father, and thus have a responsibility to remain in those roles. At 25, I had no such responsibilities, and likely would have been more willing to put my own life in harm's way. I don't know what I would have done in that scenario, assuming my family was already safe. It's part of why I hold our hero in such high esteem for his decisive actions.

 

[bobzilla]

I might have felt differently at 25 than I do at 45. Now, I have primary responsibility as husband and father, and thus have a responsibility to remain in those roles. At 25, I had no such responsibilities, and likely would have been more willing to put my own life in harm's way. I don't know what I would have done in that scenario, assuming my family was already safe. It's part of why I hold our hero in such high esteem for his decisive actions.

I’m in the opposite direction. No kids, and the wife would be fine without me financially. Get her safe and I think I’d take in the ****ing world anymore. **** it. We can’t expect change if we aren’t willing to sacrifice for it.

 

[ditcherman]

Do you have a “only fans” "?

Yea but so far you're my only subscriber.

 

[Indyhd]

I’m in the opposite direction. No kids, and the wife would be fine without me financially. Get her safe and I think I’d take in the ****ing world anymore. **** it. We can’t expect change if we aren’t willing to sacrifice for it.

I'm pretty much in this same mindset. At 64 rather than the 25-45 age the responsibilities are totally different.

 

[Indyhd]

This did make me rethink my edc. I had been carrying a Sig 938 with two extra mags. I was now looking at both a 5" Para Ordinance .45, or the 5" Springfield 9mm.
I know I wouldn't have felt comfortable engaging with the Sig from 40 yards.
It also made me think of the 50 yard shots as discussed upthread during range time.
This situation and the ranges involved certainly makes you open your eyes and think.
Not all self defense shots are that 7' scenario that the FBI stats talk about.

 

[bwframe]

...This situation and the ranges involved certainly makes you open your eyes and think.
Not all self defense shots are that 7' scenario that the FBI stats talk about.

...and not all gunfights are over in three shots or less.


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[Yup!]

Years ago we had an active shooter scenario at work. We were told ahead of time it would happen and given some rules of engagement for safety. One of the rules was we couldn’t fight back, so it was pointless because I wanted to.

When the training shooter walked into our office and started yelling bang bang, I got up. Closed my office door and hid.

When it was all done - during the de brief - I felt like a clown because 3 of my coworkers were “dead” and I was the only one who survived. From that moment of regret from a scenario, I conditioned myself to believe I’d rather die trying than live with the regret of not helping.