Justified or Something Else

[DoggyDaddy]

Police are trying to take someone into custody earth people just want to break contact.

Police aren't from earth??

 

[ECS686]

Police aren't from earth??

I omitted “normal” earth people aka Pat Rodgers term for every day citizens LOL

 

[MCgrease08]

Just going off the video, this one is on the line for me.

The big guy certainly looks to be the aggressor, but he doesn't appear to have a weapon, and the shove on the little guy would be considered ordinary physical force in the moment. It's the defender (little guy) that escalates by responding with deadly force by drawing a pistol. It does look to me like the big guy came in hard when little guy retreated into the car because he was trying to stuff the draw.

Little guy can certainly argue disparity of force because of how big the other guy is, but courts have repeatedly held that hands and fists are generally considered ordinary physical force and do not warrant a response with deadly force. Basically, trying to avoid getting punched doesn't mean you can shoot people. We can argue all day whether that's right or wrong, but it is what it is.

That said, I personally probably wouldn't vote to convict the guy if I were on the jury because I tend to err on the side of self defense. But just by the letter of the law in many states, this is borderline. I don't have an issue with timing of follow up shots as guy was retreating, but I can see how a prosecutor or jury might.

As mentioned up thread, this is a classic example of where a good OC spray comes into play. Had the little guy been prepared with that as big guy came over, he could likely have avoided this whole mess. There was no reason to let the big guy get that close and inside of the reactionary gap. There was plenty of opportunity to hose him down with the hot sauce either on the approach or while he was jaw-jacking and before the shove.

 

[ECS686]

Just going off the video, this one is on the line for me.

The big guy certainly looks to be the aggressor, but he doesn't appear to have a weapon, and the shove on the little guy would be considered ordinary physical force in the moment. It's the defender (little guy) that escalates by responding with deadly force by drawing a pistol. It does look to me like the big guy came in hard when little guy retreated into the car because he was trying to stuff the draw.

Little guy can certainly argue disparity of force because of how big the other guy is, but courts have repeatedly held that hands and fists are generally considered ordinary physical force and do not warrant a response with deadly force. Basically, trying to avoid getting punched doesn't mean you can shoot people. We can argue all day whether that's right or wrong, but it is what it is.

That said, I personally probably wouldn't vote to convict the guy if I were on the jury because I tend to err on the side of self defense. But just by the letter of the law in many states, this is borderline. I don't have an issue with timing of follow up shots as guy was retreating, but I can see how a prosecutor or jury might.

As mentioned up thread, this is a classic example of where a good OC spray comes into play. Had the little guy been prepared with that as big guy came over, he could likely have avoided this whole mess. There was no reason to let the big guy get that close and inside of the reactionary gap. There was plenty of opportunity to hose him down with the hot sauce either on the approach or while he was jaw-jacking and before the shove.

I get what you are seeing with “just fists” The main issue was the big guy was striking the little guy into a hard object (car) That bumps it up into the serious bodily injury category (one of the factors in George Zimmerman acquittal It was shown Martin was smashing Zimmerman head into the concrete and any “reasonable” person knew they were at risk of serious bodily injury.

And the big guy left after first contact and came back.

Why decisions to charge/not charge take weeks sometimes. They look at everything and sometimes video that the public doesn’t know about!

 

[Jaybird1980]

To many unknowns. Mainly what state is it in.

To me it falls in the Play stupid games you win stupid prizes category. The big guy put on a show for his ego and he earned his prize.

Easy disparity of force. It was more than just a shove. Big guy most certainly had a weapon, that's his hands and he was using that weapon. The little guy didn't escalate it, the little guy was reacting to the escalation of violence.

If this clip is all I had to go on, the little guy is in the clear.

I have health problems that eliminates me going hands on with someone. I would lose that every time, and I don't plan on losing just for some silly idea that a fight is somehow supposed to be fair.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Not really an apple to apples comparison. Police are trying to take someone into custody earth people just want to break contact. Unfortunately She was not the first one to mistake a firearm for a taser. In fact the frequency that mishaps like that happened with Oilice is why most agencies unless they are under a rock dictate off side carry.

I know of no documented cases where a LE or civilian confused a firearm for a canister of Oeoper/OC spray

A large percentage of people are programmed to gun only and that’s not always legal and or if it is is it the best way?

Perhaps BBI can ad in some content.

Taser issue was muscle memory and set expectations. The taser draws the same as a pistol and is activated the same as a pistol. She carried it next to her pistol and when she felt the draw she expected to feel her brain didn't catch up to the minute differences in time. OC is not drawn the same, is not carried in the same manner, and is not activated the same. The odds of confusing OC for pistol or vice versa unless someone is too stupid to carry either is essentially zero. Simply cross drawing the Taser is enough to trigger the "this isn't right" response for Taser vs pistol confusion, so the completely different feel and activation of the OC should well over compensate.

I suppose if you had one of those pepper ball blaster things the Taser V Pistol argument may hold more water, but I don't see it with a canister style.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Police aren't from earth??

Of course we are. *licks eyeball*

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I guess no one knows if the hop, skip, jump is kidney shot?

Ok, well, back on topic . . .

First two, yes, justified, reasonable fear of sbi or death, but after those, the ones to the back . . . a shot at Manslaughter to be sure.

Where is this? Looks Arizonaey?

 

[bgcatty]

The big bully got what was coming to him! He got his comeuppance big time!

 

[Creedmoor]

The big bully got what was coming to him! He got his comeuppance big time!

Crap, Fine....now im off to ask the Book of Knowledge girl with the Juris Doctor what the **** comeuppance means!!!!!
BRB...

Edit,
I asked her what it meant and she responded with,
You are a terse sycophant.

I'm still at a loss.

​

 

[jwamplerusa]

Of course we are. *licks eyeball*

This needs saved somewhere as an INGO instant classic!

The visual I had with this line instantly made me laugh.

 

[actaeon277]

Taser issue was muscle memory and set expectations. The taser draws the same as a pistol and is activated the same as a pistol. She carried it next to her pistol and when she felt the draw she expected to feel her brain didn't catch up to the minute differences in time. OC is not drawn the same, is not carried in the same manner, and is not activated the same. The odds of confusing OC for pistol or vice versa unless someone is too stupid to carry either is essentially zero. Simply cross drawing the Taser is enough to trigger the "this isn't right" response for Taser vs pistol confusion, so the completely different feel and activation of the OC should well over compensate.

I suppose if you had one of those pepper ball blaster things the Taser V Pistol argument may hold more water, but I don't see it with a canister style.

Well, I don't carry a taser, so I don't have a dog in the fight.
But I've often thought the taser should be designed so that it's NOT shaped or activated like a pistol.
That whole muscle memory thing you mentioned.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

What we see on the two videos is one thing... context, and possibly pretext, might be involved.

My BS detector, while not pegged, is hitting high numbers. I would not be surprised if we find out the shooter/defender "called his shots" well in advance, for example.

Anyone find where and when this occurred and who was involved?

 

[Judamonster]

There could be any number of scenarios that led to the fight. Little guy looks like he wanted the altercation-that smug look on his face tells me he did something to start the entire thing. I am a very big person (I dwarf the big guy). I have a lifetime of Napoleon stories where I have to deal with people like that. They usually earn the bruises they get. If the fatal shot was in the back I would say it's murder no matter the back story. Your life is not being threatened by someone running away. If it is in the front, I would not love my chances in court. A shove isn't deadly force. Sometimes, a man has to take his beating. If the little dude instigated the fight, its murder either way.

 

[Amishman44]

First two, yes, justified, reasonable fear of sbi or death, but after those, the ones to the back . . . a shot at Manslaughter to be sure.
Where is this? Looks Arizonaey?

That's kinda what I said earlier...in the imminent moment, yes, he had a right to defend himself against an obviously aggressive and physically threatening (grave physical harm and/or death) situation...but after the aggressor choose to run away, the shooter continuing to fire (into his back as he was fleeing) made the smaller individual now the aggressor. That, and the way he calmly re-holstered his pistol and flashed a hand-sign at the van as it was leaving...he'll have to pass muster with the local district attorney for this to be truly 'self-defense.'

 

[BigRed]

I guess no one knows if the hop, skip, jump is kidney shot?

Ok, well, back on topic . . .

First two, yes, justified, reasonable fear of sbi or death, but after those, the ones to the back . . . a shot at Manslaughter to be sure.

Where is this? Looks Arizonaey?

I'm pretty sure it is outside of a church just before Wednesday night Bible study.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Not near enough context to know what was really going on, but based on what is seen in the video, I'm just gonna say it didn't look like there was much "justified" to go around on anyone's part in this incident.

 

[Denny347]

If the fatal shot was in the back I would say it's murder no matter the back story. Your life is not being threatened by someone running away.

100% false!!! Too broad a statement devoid of any specifics.

 

[xwing]

First shots look justified to me. From what was shown, the big guy was the aggressor, was already committing assault and battery, and the smaller guy had reasonable fear for his safety. Any shots after the guy is actively running away though would not be justified. Any link to story / details?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Apparently this occurred in January 2022 in a cannabis dispensary parking lot, West Pueblo, CO:



The building and surroundings from the video match the Dispo Dispensary.



No other info I can find....