I'd rather spend my money with JY than someone who has just taken a bunch of classes and calls themself an instructor, even if there is a hot chick that may or may not be involved.
Very true. For most people, all of these "classes" have a limited usefulness. If someone makes the conscious decision to take one to shoot a bunch of ammo, and have some fun on a weekend, that's fine. However please spare me how any of this will turn the average person into a "gunfighter" over a 2 or 3 day period, along with a couple of thousand rounds and bucks.
All a "carbine course" does is require you to shoot a bunch of ammo real fast, and in the process run barrel and internal temperatures off the scale. You don't need a course to run a $1,200.00+ weapon through what basically amounts to a destruction test. Gun rags do it all the time.
Furthermore, what if anything does this tell you about a weapons quality, or you as a shooter about marksmanship? Would you test a vehicle the same way, by beating the hell out of it until it overheated and failed? Anyone can abuse something to the point of failure. Who, including law enforcement, is ever going to run their weapon like that? No one, ever. Even in the North Hollywood Bank Of America shootout, which was the worst in terms of amount of rounds spent in a civilian gunfight, did anyone shoot their weapons to the point of failure from overheating, and or breakage? Not even close. This in spite of the fact all of the AR's the police used in that gunfight, were "borrowed" straight off the gun shop rack. None saw so much as a drop of lube.
What is a 30 round mag dump into a suitcase sized target from 7 yards away going to teach you about marksmanship? If you want to learn "tactical reloads", and other such play antics that you will NEVER use in real life, then these warrior games are fine. Which is why most take them. What I get sick and tired of hearing is when someone buys a AR-15 rifle, someone will always pipe up with, "Now take a carbine course and get some REAL training!" To do what?
These people talk like these things are the cure all, end all to survival. In reality they are in the same class as going up in one of these mock fighter planes for a 45 minute "dogfight" shooting laser beams instead of bullets. A lot of fun to do, but in reality about as useful as a iron worker with a Liberal Arts Degree. In reality most people would benefit far more from attending a Appleseed shoot, than they would paying some over hyped "trainer" for overpriced weekend warrior games. They'll actually be able to hit something when they're finished. I'm not trying to berate anyone who chooses to take these "classes". Just keep the reasoning behind them in the proper perspective. Especially in todays **** poor economic world, where hustlers lurk in every avenue, all trying to separate you from your hard earned money, by trying to sell you something you "need".
If you honestly feel the need to ask me that question, you didn't comprehend what I wrote very well.Who have you taken a carbine course with?
Very true. For most people, all of these "classes" have a limited usefulness. If someone makes the conscious decision to take one to shoot a bunch of ammo, and have some fun on a weekend, that's fine. However please spare me how any of this will turn the average person into a "gunfighter" over a 2 or 3 day period, along with a couple of thousand rounds and bucks.
All a "carbine course" does is require you to shoot a bunch of ammo real fast, and in the process run barrel and internal temperatures off the scale. You don't need a course to run a $1,200.00+ weapon through what basically amounts to a destruction test. Gun rags do it all the time.
Furthermore, what if anything does this tell you about a weapons quality, or you as a shooter about marksmanship? Would you test a vehicle the same way, by beating the hell out of it until it overheated and failed? Anyone can abuse something to the point of failure. Who, including law enforcement, is ever going to run their weapon like that? No one, ever. Even in the North Hollywood Bank Of America shootout, which was the worst in terms of amount of rounds spent in a civilian gunfight, did anyone shoot their weapons to the point of failure from overheating, and or breakage? Not even close. This in spite of the fact all of the AR's the police used in that gunfight, were "borrowed" straight off the gun shop rack. None saw so much as a drop of lube.
What is a 30 round mag dump into a suitcase sized target from 7 yards away going to teach you about marksmanship? If you want to learn "tactical reloads", and other such play antics that you will NEVER use in real life, then these warrior games are fine. Which is why most take them. What I get sick and tired of hearing is when someone buys a AR-15 rifle, someone will always pipe up with, "Now take a carbine course and get some REAL training!" To do what?
These people talk like these things are the cure all, end all to survival. In reality they are in the same class as going up in one of these mock fighter planes for a 45 minute "dogfight" shooting laser beams instead of bullets. A lot of fun to do, but in reality about as useful as a iron worker with a Liberal Arts Degree. In reality most people would benefit far more from attending a Appleseed shoot, than they would paying some over hyped "trainer" for overpriced weekend warrior games. They'll actually be able to hit something when they're finished. I'm not trying to berate anyone who chooses to take these "classes". Just keep the reasoning behind them in the proper perspective. Especially in todays **** poor economic world, where hustlers lurk in every avenue, all trying to separate you from your hard earned money, by trying to sell you something you "need".
Although I know all training doesn't fit neatly into this description there is a lot that does.
I agree, and that is what I was trying to point out. There is good and bad in everything. This is a very lucrative business for those to practice in it. With that comes a lot of B.S. Having a, "name in the business" doesn't necessarily mean they're selling good business.
And some of you wonder why there are those who don't take training from others.
I would ask who's at fault for the persona that JY displays on the internet that most people have to base their opinion on? After all, we all cannot meet everyone in person. I guess we'll have to take your word for it. JY is GTG because you can personally vouch for him.That's no excuse for not training. If reading differing opinions keeps people from doing something, there are deeper problems to be discussed.
Personally, I would train with just about anyone and if not, I would have justification based on something solid or just keep my mouth closed. I really hate seeing trainers who pile on other trainers. Is the objective to get people to take their course instead of others'? Someone said it earlier, we've given a lot of bandwidth to this discussion, but Yeager's classes are running and people are taking them. He's going to continue having a big mouth. His actions in Iraq cannot be changed. So, the discussions will continue. I only interject because I have taken his course and have gotten to know him as a man. I would feel less of a man to allow him to be dogged out by those who know squat besides what they have seen on the internet, and not say anything, just as I would if someone did that to Shay, Obijohn, Vert or anyone else I've trained with.
Bottom line, find someone to train with. A trainer can help make you better.
Very true. For most people, all of these "classes" have a limited usefulness. If someone makes the conscious decision to take one to shoot a bunch of ammo, and have some fun on a weekend, that's fine. However please spare me how any of this will turn the average person into a "gunfighter" over a 2 or 3 day period, along with a couple of thousand rounds and bucks.
All a "carbine course" does is require you to shoot a bunch of ammo real fast, and in the process run barrel and internal temperatures off the scale. You don't need a course to run a $1,200.00+ weapon through what basically amounts to a destruction test. Gun rags do it all the time.
Furthermore, what if anything does this tell you about a weapons quality, or you as a shooter about marksmanship? Would you test a vehicle the same way, by beating the hell out of it until it overheated and failed? Anyone can abuse something to the point of failure. Who, including law enforcement, is ever going to run their weapon like that? No one, ever. Even in the North Hollywood Bank Of America shootout, which was the worst in terms of amount of rounds spent in a civilian gunfight, did anyone shoot their weapons to the point of failure from overheating, and or breakage? Not even close. This in spite of the fact all of the AR's the police used in that gunfight, were "borrowed" straight off the gun shop rack. None saw so much as a drop of lube.
What is a 30 round mag dump into a suitcase sized target from 7 yards away going to teach you about marksmanship? If you want to learn "tactical reloads", and other such play antics that you will NEVER use in real life, then these warrior games are fine. Which is why most take them. What I get sick and tired of hearing is when someone buys a AR-15 rifle, someone will always pipe up with, "Now take a carbine course and get some REAL training!" To do what?
These people talk like these things are the cure all, end all to survival. In reality they are in the same class as going up in one of these mock fighter planes for a 45 minute "dogfight" shooting laser beams instead of bullets. A lot of fun to do, but in reality about as useful as a iron worker with a Liberal Arts Degree. In reality most people would benefit far more from attending a Appleseed shoot, than they would paying some over hyped "trainer" for overpriced weekend warrior games. They'll actually be able to hit something when they're finished. I'm not trying to berate anyone who chooses to take these "classes". Just keep the reasoning behind them in the proper perspective. Especially in todays **** poor economic world, where hustlers lurk in every avenue, all trying to separate you from your hard earned money, by trying to sell you something you "need".
Actually, I can think of a few.That's no excuse for not training.
Actually, I can think of a few.
You may not agree with them, but you aren't me*, and you can't judge the value/benefit of a decision for me by your standards.
Frankly, I think the whole training thing has been elevated far above it's actual worth. It has become the bare minimum of expectations for "good" firearms owners, the standard of acceptability by one's peers. And it not coincidentally happens to justify the logic that firearms ownership must necessarily go hand-in-hand with training. On a certain level, training has become valued solely for the sake of training, not for the knowledge or experience it imparts to the participants.
*It should be noted that I personally do not eschew training for myself. I am simply taking the devil's advocate side here because I dislike the demagogic approach the rabidly pro-training sect utilizes. There's more than a little "You should do what I suggest because I think it's right." The other big issue I have with it is the attachment it has cemented to ownership that there is a "responsibility" to be trained or I can't be a good firearms owner. It creates a standard that runs the risk of damaging the ability of people to defend their self defense choices by disallowing the legitimacy of their actions based on the fact that they have had no training. Nobody should be restricted in the exercise of their liberties by artificial and arbitrary standards based on someone else's ideals of "good enough" or "acceptable." There's a page every month in any of the NRA rags belying the charge that training is a necessary component to firearms ownership. I applaud the choice of someone who feels it will do him a great service to take training. But I will not condemn someone's choice not to take any, regardless of the reason.
I would ask who's at fault for the persona that JY displays on the internet that most people have to base their opinion on? After all, we all cannot meet everyone in person. I guess we'll have to take your word for it. JY is GTG because you can personally vouch for him.
Actually, I can think of a few.
You may not agree with them, but you aren't me*, and you can't judge the value/benefit of a decision for me by your standards.
Frankly, I think the whole training thing has been elevated far above it's actual worth. It has become the bare minimum of expectations for "good" firearms owners, the standard of acceptability by one's peers. And it not coincidentally happens to justify the logic that firearms ownership must necessarily go hand-in-hand with training. On a certain level, training has become valued solely for the sake of training, not for the knowledge or experience it imparts to the participants.
*It should be noted that I personally do not eschew training for myself. I am simply taking the devil's advocate side here because I dislike the demagogic approach the rabidly pro-training sect utilizes. There's more than a little "You should do what I suggest because I think it's right." The other big issue I have with it is the attachment it has cemented to ownership that there is a "responsibility" to be trained or I can't be a good firearms owner. It creates a standard that runs the risk of damaging the ability of people to defend their self defense choices by disallowing the legitimacy of their actions based on the fact that they have had no training. Nobody should be restricted in the exercise of their liberties by artificial and arbitrary standards based on someone else's ideals of "good enough" or "acceptable." There's a page every month in any of the NRA rags belying the charge that training is a necessary component to firearms ownership. I applaud the choice of someone who feels it will do him a great service to take training. But I will not condemn someone's choice not to take any, regardless of the reason.