"It's not just about putting people in jail"

[KG1]

Alright. This act of human compassion choked me up this morning. Well done.

Viral snapshot captures Texas police officer?s kindness to homeless veteran

 

[Kutnupe14]

"Combat veteran" ' eh? ....never met a destitute veteran that didn't serve in combat. In today's world it's hard not to be a cynic.

 

[KG1]

Kut's cynical side says the cops were probably duped into an act of human compassion. That's what he gets out of this story. Not surprising really.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Kut's cynical side says the cops were probably duped into an act of human compassion. That's what he gets out of this story. Not surprising really.

Duped, no. The interaction was mutually beneficial, one guy a room and foot, and the other publicity. But like I said I'm a cynic.

 

[BugI02]

"Combat veteran" ' eh? ....never met a destitute veteran that didn't serve in combat. In today's world it's hard not to be a cynic.

Ever see 'Restrepo' or the first 30 min of 'Saving Private Ryan'? Do you think it's possible that the more horrific your wartime experience was the more likely you would show up among the ranks of the disfunctional

 

[Kutnupe14]

Ever see 'Restrepo' or the first 30 min of 'Saving Private Ryan'? Do you think it's possible that the more horrific your wartime experience was the more likely you would show up among the ranks of the disfunctional

I think that's that more than a fair possibility....

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Maybe some play up the combat because it's easier for people to understand, but what's combat really have to do with it? To me, if he has DD-214, when they said "put up or shut up" he put up. I had an uncle that went up Mt. Suribachi in WWII. My dad was in the Coast Guard protecting the coal and iron ore from those wily Canadians. Neither was more or less a veteran than the other.

 

[indiucky]

"Combat veteran" ' eh? ....never met a destitute veteran that didn't serve in combat. In today's world it's hard not to be a cynic.

You said that and this popped into my head....

[video=youtube;DKtjBqJ4NxA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKtjBqJ4NxA[/video]

Maybe it's just me but the vets I talk to don't discuss the subject of combat with me until we have known each other a very long time.....They know I am not a combat vet (nor a vet) so I would probably not understand..... My grandfather did twice (and we were tight) I could see it was physically upsetting him and I just changed the subject...

IMHO....With deep, heartfelt gratitude to those that serve and have served to protect me and mine...Thank you....

 

[r3126]

I am not a Kutnupe14 fan and have, most often, disagreed with his postings. That being said, I agree with him as I am also a cynic when it comes to claims of military service and combat time. I am an "old" war horse and date my experiences (22 years on active duty) to the Vietnam era. I have found that claims of prior service far exceed the realities of the times. Georgia Tech did an extensive research study of the effects of the Vietnam conflict that provides interesting statistics. I quote a portion of that study herein. While a direct correlation to the present time cannot be established, I strongly believe that a like (or even stronger) correlation exists. Most claims of military service are just not true. On a slightly different note but still in context; it is interesting to note that in discussions with veterans nearly everybody claims to have been in Special Operations, SEALS, Recon, Rangers or Air Commando. No one acknowledges that they were a cook, a truck driver or an admin person (all of which are important, vital jobs) Anyway, I am running on...... The statistics.


INTERESTING CENSUS STATISTICS & THOSE TO CLAIM TO HAVE "Been There":

1,713,823 of those who served in Vietnam were still alive as of August, 1995 (census figures).

During that same Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country was: 9,492,958.

As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. This is hard to believe, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day.

During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.

 

[BugI02]

Although if this were absolutely true it would not surprise me, I wonder about methodology. I don't think there were unit specific census questions about service, and that is what you would need to check the veracity of claims to have served in country

 

[indiucky]

I am not a Kutnupe14 fan and have, most often, disagreed with his postings.

One does not become a Kut fan because one agrees with him..Kut, like good gravy, is consistent...I like good gravy and am a Kut fan for that reason...

 

[r3126]

Although if this were absolutely true it would not surprise me, I wonder about methodology. I don't think there were unit specific census questions about service, and that is what you would need to check the veracity of claims to have served in country

Don't want to seem to be a "nit picker" here, but you are saying "you think" where the statistics from the Georgia Tech study takes data from "the census" and presents it as fact. More statistics that are more "unit specific".......

STATISTICS FOR INDIVIDUALS IN UNIFORM AND IN COUNTRY VIE TNAM VETERANS:

* 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam Era (August 5, 1964 - May 7, 1975).

* 8,744,000 GIs were on active duty during the war (Aug 5, 1964-March 28, 1973).

* 2,709,918 Americans served in Vietnam, this number represents 9.7% of their generation.

* 3,403,100 (Including 514,300 offshore) personnel served in the broader Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters).

* 2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam (Jan. 1, 1965 - March 28, 1973). Another 50,000 men served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964.

* Of the 2.6 million, between 1-1.6 million (40-60%) either fought in combat, provided close support or were at least fairly regularly exposed to enemy attack.

* 7,484 women (6,250 or 83.5% were nurses) served in Vietnam.

* Peak troop strength in Vietnam: 543,482 (April 30, 1968).

CASUALTIES:

The first man to die in Vietnam was James Davis, in 1958. He was with the 509th Radio Research Station. Davis Station in Saigon was named for him.

Hostile deaths: 47,378

Non-hostile deaths: 10,800

Total: 58,202 (Includes men formerly classified as MIA and Mayaguez casualties). Men who have subsequently died of wounds account for the changing total.

8 nurses died -- 1 was KIA.

61% of the men killed were 21 or younger.

11,465 of those killed were younger than 20 years old.

Of those killed, 17,539 were married.

Average age of men killed: 23.1 years

Total Deaths: 23.11 years

Enlisted: 50,274 22.37 years

Officers: 6,598 28.43 years

Warrants: 1,276 24.73 years

E1: 525 20.34 years

11B MOS: 18,465 22.55 years

Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old.

The oldest man killed was 62 years old.

Highest state death rate: West Virginia - 84.1% (national average 58.9% for every 100,000 males in 1970).

Wounded: 303,704 -- 153,329 hospitalized + 150,375 injured requiring no hospital care.

Severely disabled: 75,000, -- 23,214: 100% disabled; 5,283 lost limbs; 1,081 sustained multiple amputations.

Amputation or crippling wounds to the lower extremities were 300% higher than in WWII and 70% higher than Korea.

Multiple amputations occurred at the rate of 18.4% compared to 5.7% in WWII.

Missing in Action: 2,338

POWs: 766 (114 died in captivity)

As of January 15, 2004, there are 1,875 Americans still unaccounted for from the Vietnam War.

DRAFTEES VS. VOLUNTEERS:

25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. (66% of U.S. armed forces members were drafted during WWII).

Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam.

Reservists killed: 5,977

National Guard: 6,140 served: 101 died.

Total draftees (1965 - 73): 1,728,344.

Actually served in Vietnam: 38% Marine Corps Draft: 42,633.

Last man drafted: June 30, 1973.

RACE AND ETHNIC BACKGROUND:

88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian; 10.6% (275,000) were black; 1% belonged to other races.

86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasian (includes Hispanics);

12.5% (7,241) were black; 1.2% belonged to other races.

170,000 Hispanics served in Vietnam; 3,070 (5.2% of total) died there.

70% of enlisted men killed were of North-west European descent.

86.8% of the men who were killed as a result of hostile action were Caucasian; 12.1% (5,711) were black; 1.1% belonged to other races.

14.6% (1,530) of non-combat deaths were among blacks.

34% of blacks who enlisted volunteered for the combat arms.

Overall, blacks suffered 12.5% of the deaths in Vietnam at a time when the percentage of blacks of military age was 13.5% of the total population.

Religion of Dead: Protestant -- 64.4%; Catholic -- 28.9%; other/none -- 6.7% SOCIO-ECONOMIC STATUS:

Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than the same non-vet age groups.

Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent.

76% of the men sent to Vietnam were from lower middle/working class backgrounds.

Three-fourths had family incomes above the poverty level; 50% were from middle income backgrounds.

Some 23% of Vietnam vets had fathers with professional, managerial or technical occupations.

79% of the men who served in Vietnam had a high school education or better when they entered the military service. 63% of Korean War vets and only 45% of WWII vets had completed high school upon separation.

Deaths by region per 100,000 of population: South -- 31%, West --29.9%; Midwest -- 28.4%; Northeast -- 23.5%.

DRUG USAGE & CRIME:

There is no difference in drug usage between Vietnam Veterans and non-Vietnam Veterans of the same age group. (Source: Veterans Administration Study)

Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only one-half of one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes.

85% of Vietnam Veterans made successful transitions to civilian li fe.

WINNING & LOSING:

82% of veterans who saw heavy combat strongly believe the war was lost because of lack of political will.

Nearly 75% of the public agrees it was a failure of political will, not of arms.

HONORABLE SERVICE:

97% of Vietnam-era veterans were honorably discharged.

91% of actual Vietnam War veterans and 90% of those who saw heavy combat are proud to have served their country.

74% say they would serve again, even knowing the outcome.

87% of the public now holds Vietnam veterans in high esteem.

INTERESTING CENSUS STATISTICS & THOSE TO CLAIM TO HAVE "Been There":

1,713,823 of those who served in Vietnam were still alive as of August, 1995 (census figures).

During that same Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country was: 9,492,958.

As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. This is hard to believe, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day.

During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.

The Department of Defense Vietnam War Service Index officially provided by The War Library originally reported with errors that 2,709,918 U.S. military personnel as having served in-country. Corrections and confirmations to this erred index resulted in the addition of 358 U.S. military personnel confirmed to have served in Vietnam but not originally listed by the Department of Defense. (All names are currently on file and accessible 24/7/365).

Isolated atrocities committed by American Soldiers produced torrents of outrage from anti-war critics and the news media while Communist atrocities were so common that they received hardly any media mention at all. The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy. Americans who deliberately killed civilians received prison sentences while Communists who did so received commendations.

From 1957 to 1973, the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 Vietnamese and abducted another 58,499. The death squads focused on leaders at the village level and on anyone who improved the lives of the peasants such as medical personnel, social workers, and school teachers. - Nixon Presidential Papers.

=============

 

[SmileDocHill]

Total Deaths: 23.11 years

Enlisted: 50,274 22.37 years

Officers: 6,598 28.43 years

Warrants: 1,276 24.73 years

E1: 525 20.34 years

11B MOS: 18,465 22.55 years

Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old.

The oldest man killed was 62 years old.

1) Fascinating read! I don't understand what the top 6 lines of the part I quoted represents? Anyone care to explain.

2)Also, the oldest man killed... They used the work "man" vs military term like soldier, marine..... are there 62 year old guys fighting?

3) Also, last one I think, "Non-hostile deaths"??? I'm guessing these include friendly fire, heart attacks, accidents, and generally other things that can happen in such a dangerous environment that does not include fighting with the enemy?
Thanks in advance. Love stewing over this stuff.

 

[r3126]

1) Fascinating read! I don't understand what the top 6 lines of the part I quoted represents? Anyone care to explain.

2)Also, the oldest man killed... They used the work "man" vs military term like soldier, marine..... are there 62 year old guys fighting?

3) Also, last one I think, "Non-hostile deaths"??? I'm guessing these include friendly fire, heart attacks, accidents, and generally other things that can happen in such a dangerous environment that does not include fighting with the enemy?

1-6 Number of deaths and average age.
Study precedes Political Correctness
Non hostile deaths = All other causes besides a result of hostile action.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

1) Fascinating read! I don't understand what the top 6 lines of the part I quoted represents? Anyone care to explain.

2)Also, the oldest man killed... They used the work "man" vs military term like soldier, marine..... are there 62 year old guys fighting?

3) Also, last one I think, "Non-hostile deaths"??? I'm guessing these include friendly fire, heart attacks, accidents, and generally other things that can happen in such a dangerous environment that does not include fighting with the enemy?
Thanks in advance. Love stewing over this stuff.

Enlisted are the guys with stripes (or nothing), privates, corporals, sergeants, etc.

Warrant officers are officers who are specialists. Chopper pilots are often warrants.

Officers are commissioned officers, the lieutenants, captains, etc.

E1 is the lowest rank, a " slick sleeve" private.

11b is infantryman.

 

[BugI02]

Don't want to seem to be a "nit picker" here, but you are saying "you think" where the statistics from the Georgia Tech study takes data from "the census" and presents it as fact. More statistics that are more "unit specific".......

An impressive array of general statistics. Not sure how you get to your specific conclusions. Following are the only questions on the 2000 census form dealing with military service.

Source: https://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d02p.pdf


a. Has this person ever served on active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces, military Reserves, or National Guard? Active duty does not include training for the Reserves or National Guard, but DOES include activation, for example, for the Persian Gulf War.
Yes, now on active duty


Yes, on active duty in past, but not now


No, training for Reserves or National Guard only → Skip to 21


No, never served in the military → Skip to 21



b. When did this person serve on active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces? Mark ✗ a box for EACH period in which this person served.
April 1995 or later
August 1990 to March 1995 (including Persian Gulf War)

September 1980 to July 1990

May 1975 to August 1980

Vietnam era (August 1964—April 1975)

February 1955 to July 1964

Korean conflict (June 1950—January 1955)

World War II (September 1940—July 1947)

Some other time



Now I can see how some straight forward math could be done, ala 'There were x million soldiers on active duty during the vietnam era and y million claiming that status, thus (y - x) individuals were claiming this falsely. It's not that simple. My brother was a spark chaser on 52s in Thailand during the conflict and undoubtedly would have indicated (correctly) being on active duty during the Viet Nam era. Without data on branch of service I don't think you can make even that limited sense of the numbers. And if they were using census data, they had only limited data

 

[BugI02]

1) Fascinating read! I don't understand what the top 6 lines of the part I quoted represents? Anyone care to explain.

Na-na-na-na-nineteen

2)Also, the oldest man killed... They used the work "man" vs military term like soldier, marine..... are there 62 year old guys fighting?

3) Also, last one I think, "Non-hostile deaths"??? I'm guessing these include friendly fire, heart attacks, accidents, and generally other things that can happen in such a dangerous environment that does not include fighting with the enemy?
Thanks in advance. Love stewing over this stuff.

[video=youtube;byCCmBwRjGw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byCCmBwRjGw[/video]

 

[r3126]

I yield to your superior intellect and greater statistical background. I drew NO SPECIFIC CONCLUSIONS, stating only that I, too, was a cynic and that "...I strongly believe...". I will still stand with the statistics presented by Georgia Tech and let you and others draw the conclusions that you and they wish. Never forget the motto of those who get to involved in numbers... "Figures lie and liars figure."

 

[BugI02]

It was not my intent to give offense and if I have I apologize. I have no doubt that a huge number of people claim service beyond what, if any, they actually gave - witness the plethora of stolen valor cases currently. I plead engineerism. Once the talk turns to numbers I become fascinated with the minutiae

 

[Kutnupe14]

I am not a Kutnupe14 fan and have, most often, disagreed with his postings.

Blah.... you're in the minority. Everybody else here likes me and agre..... oh wait. This isn't the "Black Power take Down Da Man" forum, is it? Nevermind, carry on.