Is ammunition that important?

[iChokePeople]

Richwon, although I don't disagree with any of the previous posts, there are no guarantees about anything when talking about handgun bullet performance. Especially penetration. A hollow point that gets plugged up with coat material will act similar to a FMJ bullet. The guy that is deserving of the shot could be a skinny 120 lb person or a big fat, waddling, 350 lb guy.

I do NOT waddle.

 

[sloughfoot]

I waddle, just less since I got my new knees..

 

[the1kidd03]

Richwon, although I don't disagree with any of the previous posts, there are no guarantees about anything when talking about handgun bullet performance. Especially penetration. A hollow point that gets plugged up with coat material will act similar to a FMJ bullet. The guy that is deserving of the shot could be a skinny 120 lb person or a big fat, waddling, 350 lb guy.

The ideal for all of us, is the round that expands perfectly and stays within the body of the person that needs to be shot. There just is NO WAY to guarantee that. 12 inches of penetration may completely penetrate Mr skinny and barely reach the vitals of Mr fatty. Or just the opposite. There is not a bullet manufacturer out there that can guarantee ANYTHING. Some amazing SD ammo is being marketed, there is no HP ammo that guarantees anything.

Situational awareness is important whenever things are getting serious and the hog leg needs to be employed. Believe me, you can almost always decide the angle of the shot, if you have to take the shot. It can be as simple as dropping to a knee and angling the shot upward. Or realizing that your car in the garage is a backstop. Or that book case on the wall. I don't know for your layout and circumstance, but if you think about it, you will know.

FMJ bullets have stopped the respiration of a lot of folks. They say "OWWW" and sit down just like they do with HP rounds, in the absence of drug induced further activity. They usually get all teary when they realize what has happened to them. So will you, at some point. Usually when the uncontrollable shaking starts. I have witnessed this.

As to your specific question, I would use the Remington SJHP 357 round or the +P 125 38 Special round for your HD needs. They are both proven, reliable performers. I have them, I use them. There are more modern choices out there too.

For you combat veterans out there, I am talking about civilian stress defense of the home. Not war against our enemies in another hostile country.

some more good information here....although I'm curious as to why that call out to combat vets??? I miss the correlation to the rest of your information in regards to them

anyhow, as sloughfoot pointed out you don't know the body composition of your attacker...and based on the information I presented in my previous post I have a theory: resorting to studies in physics and anatomy, I think that the slightly lighter projectile, obviously containing a little less mass but moving at a higher velocity makes it vulnerable to shape change at an expedited rate especially with the softer metal (similar concept to hitting a piece of brass with a hammer at a slow velocity vs a high velocity, it changes shape more/faster)..I think that this possibility of "rapid expansion" once entering the body is possibly what disrupts the CNS in the Ayoob's studies....(think of it as a tiny "explosion" once the round enters their body) ...I haven't been able to put the theory to any testing yet, but it is in the plans for this year....in any case, the "rapid expansion" would also assist with the "you never know how fat your attacker will be" and thus not need to worry so much about over penetration.....

 

[EvilBlackGun]

You seem to be studied, but ...

... you still come off seeming to know a lot LESS than you are able to ague about. Let's see your citations, please. Your verbiage seems all bluff.

That is neither what I said nor what I meant.
The role of "energy transfer" does not depend on the type of tissue encountered, because "energy transfer" has almost nothing to do with tissue displacement from penetrating missiles.

Again, kinetic energy is not a wounding mechanism, and "energy dump" is a widespread fallacy that has, essentially, nothing to do with terminal performance and the pathophysiology of penetrating trauma. The wound profile has everything to do with terminal performance and "energy dump" is unrelated.

Another associated item:
The anatomical location of tissue displacement determines the speed of physiological incapacitation, and the only location that causes instantaneous incapacitation is from the brain stem to cervical vertebrae #7, which is a very small target--about 7" to 8" long and less that 1" wide.

Shot placement is a training issue and is independent from projectile terminal performance: one does not change with changes to the other. Most (all) discussions of projectile terminal performance include at least one person stating accuracy/shot placement is the most important. Yes, the anatomical location of tissue displacement is critical, but it is independent of projectile (bullet) technology, design, and manufacturing.

Training does not change depending on whether Federal 180 grain JHP bullets are used or whether Winchesterr 165 grain JHPs are used. Similarly, ammunition and bullets do not change with changes in training.

It is important not to confuse the two.

 

[yotewacker]

Is ammo important? Go buy a stereo receiver with no speakers. What does is sound like?

 

[jy951]

Energy is not a wounding mechanism. Energy, itself, does not displace tissue, and energy is a poor proxy for the processes that do displace tissue.

For example, consider four "energy dumps:"
1. An athletic woman delivers a hard punch to quadricep muscles.
2. A .22 short is fired into quadricep muscles and does not exit, thereby "dumping" all of its "energy."
3. a 500 grain broadhead hunting arrow is shot into quadricep muscles and stays in the leg, thereby "dumping" all of its "energy."
4. a razor-sharp, large knife is drawn across quadricep muscles, inflicting a long and very deep laceration.

The punch from the woman "deposits" the most "energy" but causes the least injury, and the knife "deposits" the least "energy" while causing the most damage.

The .22 short has more "energy" than the broadhead arrow, but the arrow inflicts a much greater wound.

As we progress down the above list, the "energy dump" decreases, while the wounding or tissue displacement increases.

The modern study of terminal ballistics has thoroughly debunked the idea that a projectile's wounding capacity is a function of its kinetic energy. In fact, the work of the Letterman Army Institute for Research under Col. Dr. Martin Fackler and, now, Dr. Gary Roberts, along with the work of the FBI's Ballistic Research Facility, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and a number of reputable entities, has demonstrated that, often, more kinetic enegy results in decreased wounding effectiveness. A cartridge's kinetic energy is, inherently, a very poor way to evaluate terminal performance.

Whether or not more energy does or does not help may be up to debate, but this example does not prove anything. If you want to determine if more energy is better or worse, you have to be consistent in the application. Shoot something with a 9mm 124 grain bullet going at 500 fps and then shoot it with the same bullet going 1500. Then see what happens. I'd bet higher energy is generally better. Comparing the energy of a fist punch to the energy of a knife wound proves nothing.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Whether or not more energy does or does not help may be up to debate, but this example does not prove anything. If you want to determine if more energy is better or worse, you have to be consistent in the application. Shoot something with a 9mm 124 grain bullet going at 500 fps and then shoot it with the same bullet going 1500. Then see what happens. I'd bet higher energy is generally better. Comparing the energy of a fist punch to the energy of a knife wound proves nothing.

^BINGO^ One thing to consider is this, the Human body is made up of 60%-70% of water. Water is a catalyst in explosives. One reason Combat Engineers use water impulse charges.

Since the body is over sixty percent water a round entering the body can create 'waves' depending on the velocity and size of the bullet. These waves can create hydrostatic shock and disrupt the normal operations of organs. So, even though the temporay wound cavity may not cause the fatal wound. Hydrostatic shock can shut down or rupture organs. Is it a guarantee, no. A lot of factors come into play.

We where always told in the Military, fire until the threat is indeed no longer a threat. Rather if it takes 2 shots or 10.

 

[NinnJinn]

I prefer JHP. Why? for the simple reason that it expands causing it to be a little bigger therefore, a better chance at tearing up blood vessels/arteries etc.

 

[NIFT]

... you still come off seeming to know a lot LESS than you are able to ague about. Let's see your citations, please. Your verbiage seems all bluff.

My first post on the first page has at least five citations you appear to have overlooked. Now, go do your own research. But, thanks for the slam--it says a lot about you.

 

[ONESHOT101]

yes indeed ammo is important !