Indiana Constitutional Carry 2017

[Kirk Freeman]

The invalid card will not be valid in any state. That's what the rational people keep trying to tell you. Yay, us, no license need in Indiana. Boo us, 34 states will no longer let us carry.

Again, Mike, I think your understanding of the proposed bill is flawed. The license is NOT disappearing.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

The licensing provision is not disappearing. You can get a license, but will not need to get a license.

Carrying a handgun is being decriminalized.

True. In fact most states that recently enacted constitutional carry laws realized the same thing and also retained their licensing for the same reason.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

If you keep up with who has CC and who's trying: Constitutional Carry Index

 

[KellyinAvon]

Called! Spoke to a nice guy and gave him my 30 second pitch. That's how it's supposed to work I guess. E-mail, write, call, repeat.

 

[brotherbill3]

Called! Spoke to a nice guy and gave him my 30 second pitch. That's how it's supposed to work I guess. E-mail, write, call, repeat.

...

And enable Friends and associate to do the same (not just those on INGO) to make the "crowd" of supporters as large as possible.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Does anyone know what his stance is on gun rights?

Per Rep Lucas, Rep Smaltz is quote "a gun guy".

Good. Let's discuss the complete failure of this thing:


So, you won't need a license in IN. Great. However, if you ever decide for some reason or other to leave IN, you won't be able to carry in 22 of the 30 other states we can currently carry in, because you won't have a license.

Even if they come up with a license for out of state, the states that require a resident license won't accept it.

If there isn't an out of state license, anyone who wants to carry in the rest of the world will have to spend more money for a shorter license and more money for training for some other state's out of state license, that still won't be valid in a lot of states.

Gun Free School Zone Act applies because you don't have a license from your state.

Call me when a viable bill is in place and I'll support it. I just contacted the relevant reps and told them to oppose this garbage.

Why wouldn't it be a resident license? The residency criteria for issuing one will not change. GFZSA will work the same as before, if you have the new license you will still be exempt from the federal law as allowed by state law. And a "resident license" is simply a license issued by your state of residency. It's not required to be listed as a "resident license", the IN LTCH and IN code have no mention of it being a resident license. We even issue non-resident licenses in a specific instance or two.

The invalid card will not be valid in any state. That's what the rational people keep trying to tell you. Yay, us, no license need in Indiana. Boo us, 34 states will no longer let us carry.

See mine and other comments.

OK, so let's see if I have this right: It's not a perfect bill, so rather than contact Mr. Lucas and make some suggestions of how to make it better, you'd rather scuttle it again. We might as well have Pat Bauer back in the Speaker's seat again, with that attitude.

There is an amendment process that the legislators can use while the bill is still being debated, prior to final passage and sending it to the governor for a signature. They can change it in committee or even on the floor of either chamber. Pretty simple stuff, too.

Blessings,
Bill

Yep, and I have done so to a small degree, and know of others who are looking into it and will do the same. Including a respected lawyer on this site.

Help me out here. What do you know that I don't?

As I understand, from what I've seen Jim Lucas write on FB, the existing LTCHs will remain valid. Future ones will be issued as "Reciprocity Licenses" or something like that. Are you asserting that my existing LTCH, in my pocket, will no longer be valid? If so, I would appreciate knowing where in the proposed bill that happens. (Sincerely).

Rep Lucas has stated it will remain valid, but I see nothing in the bill to convert the current LTCH to the new "reciprocity license to carry firearms" in it. Which is one of my concerns with this bill that I mentioned up thread and on Rep Lucas's FB page. I'm not stating it will no longer be valid, just that there is nothing in place that states that it will be.

As has been mentioned before (many, many times in this thread and elsewhere) there is a provision to keep the LTCH in place. The only thing that will change is that it will no longer be a crime to carry in Indiana without it.

If you have VERIFIABLE information to the contrary please post it. If you think other states will change their position based on something that doesn't effect then then I'd like to see that as well.

Per the language of the bill it no longer becomes a license for handguns, it becomes a license for firearms. Some of the states that recognize our LTCH have language in their law that states licensed/permitted to carry handguns. Will that effect reciprocity, I don't know. Could it? IMO yes.

 

[opus1776]

Per the language of the bill it no longer becomes a license for handguns, it becomes a license for firearms. Some of the states that recognize our LTCH have language in their law that states licensed/permitted to carry handguns. Will that effect reciprocity, I don't know. Could it? IMO yes.

With regards to the above quote--- mostly likely not. For instance the KY license is a Concealed Deadly Weapon License---which many states recognize......













======================================
"Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" K. Moss
You can NEVER be too rich or too thin.
Life is not a journey, but a series of unplanned detours...
Perfection: is not a goal---it's a demanded expectation.

 

[Jacke]

HB1159:




Read Fiscal Note #1 -




House Bill 1159 - Regulation of firearms - Indiana General Assembly, 2017 Session






“Elimination of the handgun license would relieve the
Indiana State Police (ISP) from reviewing and maintaining handgun license
applications and records. The
ISP has civilian record keepers that handle the administration of handgun
licensing as a part of the ISP’s
Records Division. The total annual salary and benefits for these ISP employees
are estimated at $261,000in
FY 2018 and $269,000 in FY 2019. The ISP could terminate these positions or
reassign them to other
duties. The net impact, above, assumes the positions would be terminated.”




“Reciprocity Licenses- The
ISP may need to have their firearms licensing processing system modified
slightly
to change the printing on handgun licenses to show “Reciprocity” on the
license. Expenditures needed to
make these changes would likely not be significant.”









· If the ISP will not even keep records, how are
other states going to feel comfortable with the “vetting” process of the “Reciprocity”
license?




· Sounds like the license may need to say “Reciprocity”
to be valid. The current LTCH WOULD be invalid in that case. It does NOT matter what Representative Lucas
says…it only matters what HB1159 says (if signed into law).




· HB1159 does NOT address this issue. It
would only take a few lines to say something like…“People with a valid LTCH issued
before July 1, 2017, will be automatically recognized as an “Indiana Firearms
Reciprocity License” for Lifetime (Lifetime LTCH) or until 4 year license
expires (4-Year LTCH).”




· I have left full contact info and my concerns
with the office of Representative Lucas with NO response so far.









Jacke

 

[KellyinAvon]

HB1159:




Read Fiscal Note #1 -




House Bill 1159 - Regulation of firearms - Indiana General Assembly, 2017 Session






“Elimination of the handgun license would relieve the
Indiana State Police (ISP) from reviewing and maintaining handgun license
applications and records. The
ISP has civilian record keepers that handle the administration of handgun
licensing as a part of the ISP’s
Records Division. The total annual salary and benefits for these ISP employees
are estimated at $261,000in
FY 2018 and $269,000 in FY 2019. The ISP could terminate these positions or
reassign them to other
duties. The net impact, above, assumes the positions would be terminated.”




“Reciprocity Licenses- The
ISP may need to have their firearms licensing processing system modified
slightly
to change the printing on handgun licenses to show “Reciprocity” on the
license. Expenditures needed to
make these changes would likely not be significant.”









· If the ISP will not even keep records, how are
other states going to feel comfortable with the “vetting” process of the “Reciprocity”
license?




· Sounds like the license may need to say “Reciprocity”
to be valid. The current LTCH WOULD be invalid in that case. It does NOT matter what Representative Lucas
says…it only matters what HB1159 says (if signed into law).




· HB1159 does NOT address this issue. It
would only take a few lines to say something like…“People with a valid LTCH issued
before July 1, 2017, will be automatically recognized as an “Indiana Firearms
Reciprocity License” for Lifetime (Lifetime LTCH) or until 4 year license
expires (4-Year LTCH).”




· I have left full contact info and my concerns
with the office of Representative Lucas with NO response so far.









Jacke

That sounds like they are estimating a significant decrease in workload with significantly fewer reciprocity licenses than LTCHs. Oh yeah, welcome to INGO.

 

[indyjoe]

Saw someone from Hoosier Carry at the 1500. Signed the petition.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

With regards to the above quote--- mostly likely not. For instance the KY license is a Concealed Deadly Weapon License---which many states recognize......

Which is why I said could, not will. I still haven't seen a valid reason for changing the language of the LTCH to Reciprocity License though. Pretty much all of my concerns with this bill would be alleviated if they went back to the original wording and dropped the reciprocity language. Also it states that the purpose of the license is for carry of firearms in states which we have a reciprocity agreement with. The number of states we have a reciprocity agreement with is zero.

A resident of this state who wishes to carry a firearm in
another state under a reciprocity agreement entered into by this
state and the other state may obtain an Indiana firearms
reciprocity license under this chapter by applying

HB1159:
House Bill 1159 - Regulation of firearms - Indiana General Assembly, 2017 Session

“Elimination of the handgun license would relieve the
Indiana State Police (ISP) from reviewing and maintaining handgun license
applications and records. The
ISP has civilian record keepers that handle the administration of handgun
licensing as a part of the ISP’s
Records Division. The total annual salary and benefits for these ISP employees
are estimated at $261,000in
FY 2018 and $269,000 in FY 2019. The ISP could terminate these positions or
reassign them to other
duties. The net impact, above, assumes the positions would be terminated.”



· If the ISP will not even keep records, how are
other states going to feel comfortable with the “vetting” process of the “Reciprocity”
license?

· Sounds like the license may need to say “Reciprocity”
to be valid. The current LTCH WOULD be invalid in that case. It does NOT matter what Representative Lucas
says…it only matters what HB1159 says (if signed into law).

· HB1159 does NOT address this issue. It
would only take a few lines to say something like…“People with a valid LTCH issued
before July 1, 2017, will be automatically recognized as an “Indiana Firearms
Reciprocity License” for Lifetime (Lifetime LTCH) or until 4 year license
expires (4-Year LTCH).”


Jacke

Welcome to

I can't find anything in the bill itself that relieves them of the duty to maintain records, but then again I can't find anything in the law as it stands that requires them to (with the exception of fingerprints) for longer than 4 years.

The original license shall be delivered to the licensee. A
copy shall be delivered to the officer to whom the application for
license was made. A copy shall be retained by the superintendent for
at least four (4) years in the case of a four (4) year license. The
superintendent may adopt guidelines to establish a records retention
policy for a lifetime license.

There is also this from the fiscal impact statement.

In order to maintain the operation of their Records Division, the ISP would have to reallocate existing funding from other sources or seek new funding.

It would be even simpler to stay with the current terminology and simply eliminate the reciprocity language.

That sounds like they are estimating a significant decrease in workload with significantly fewer reciprocity licenses than LTCHs. Oh yeah, welcome to INGO.

I agree.

Saw someone from Hoosier Carry at the 1500. Signed the petition.

I signed online. Here is a link to both of their petitions. Constitutional carry and elimination of GFZs.
Sign Our Petitions » Hoosier CarryHoosier Carry

 

[goldtrigger]

Just prepped postcards and am sending them out to members of the Public Policy committee.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I recall seeing one between Indiana and Texas. I think there are a few others, not because our law requires it, but because the reciprocating state required an agreement in place before they would recognize our LTCH within their borders.

That said, I can't argue with your thought that "a state with whom Indiana has mutual recognition of the right to carry" would be better than specifying an agreement in place that does not necessarily exist with all 32 other states that recognize our (current) LTCH.

Blessings,
Bill

Which is why I said could, not will. I still haven't seen a valid reason for changing the language of the LTCH to Reciprocity License though. Pretty much all of my concerns with this bill would be alleviated if they went back to the original wording and dropped the reciprocity language. Also it states that the purpose of the license is for carry of firearms in states which we have a reciprocity agreement with. The number of states we have a reciprocity agreement with is zero.
...

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I recall seeing one between Indiana and Texas. I think there are a few others, not because our law requires it, but because the reciprocating state required an agreement in place before they would recognize our LTCH within their borders.

That said, I can't argue with your thought that "a state with whom Indiana has mutual recognition of the right to carry" would be better than specifying an agreement in place that does not necessarily exist with all 32 other states that recognize our (current) LTCH.

Blessings,
Bill

I think I know of why you think there is an agreement between IN and TX, but there is not. TX requires an agreement, or the Gov can "decree" that TX will recognize a state that recognizes theirs. IN is recognized by TX due to the latter. I like this bill, and would love to see it passed. I just see some possible problems with it that can be corrected. Even if they are not corrected, I still would like to see this bill pass. But given the option of the two...

Why not "A resident of this state desiring a License to Carry a Handgun"? I haven't heard a compelling argument to change the terminology that is currently in use, I can't see any positives for it, and can see possible negatives.

 

[ATM]

Let's not allow other states' requirements of permission slips to get in the way of repealing our own state's infringements.

 

[goldtrigger]

Let's not allow other states' requirements of permission slips to get in the way of repealing our own state's infringements.

Amen

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Let's not allow other states' requirements of permission slips to get in the way of repealing our own state's infringements.

I agree, and am not arguing for such. If every state that currently honors the IN LTCH said that if IN gets Constitutional carry, they would not. I'd still say pass the bill. What I am stating is why possibly shoot ourselves in the foot for no additional gain. Do you see any additional gain by making the LTCH into a "reciprocity license" with the additional language added?

 

[chipbennett]

Good. Let's discuss the complete failure of this thing:


So, you won't need a license in IN. Great. However, if you ever decide for some reason or other to leave IN, you won't be able to carry in 22 of the 30 other states we can currently carry in, because you won't have a license.


Even if they come up with a license for out of state, the states that require a resident license won't accept it.


If there isn't an out of state license, anyone who wants to carry in the rest of the world will have to spend more money for a shorter license and more money for training for some other state's out of state license, that still won't be valid in a lot of states.


Gun Free School Zone Act applies because you don't have a license from your state.

Call me when a viable bill is in place and I'll support it. I just contacted the relevant reps and told them to oppose this garbage.

We've spent half a dozen pages discussing this bill. We've posted the full text of the bill, as submitted. Have you even been paying attention - or even trying to pay attention?

The LTCH is not going away. It will be retained, specifically for reciprocity purposes. The only change is to the requirement that one have an LTCH in order to carry a handgun.

I reiterate my concern from last week. If INGOers can't even be bothered to know what's in the bill, then we have a very tough row to hoe in getting HB 1159 passed.

 

[chipbennett]

The invalid card will not be valid in any state. That's what the rational people keep trying to tell you. Yay, us, no license need in Indiana. Boo us, 34 states will no longer let us carry.

FUD

Please post the part of HB 1159 that renders the LTCH invalid.

 

[chipbennett]

I think all that will have to happen is to add a few lines or another paragraph to the existing proposal that keeps the current LTCH valid?

HB 1159 already keeps the LTCH valid.