IN: Institute for Justice sues over cash seizure.

[Destro]

Getting humans to be moral and not tend towards corruption is not gonna happen. Make it harder to reap the rewards of theft and it will decrease.

The think is, it's NOT theft. YOU think it is theft, several people here think it is theft, and there is a lawsuit claiming it amounts to such. Theft has a specific definition under the law, and this is not it.

The officer could have hid the $40k and walked out and pretended it never happened. Clearly theft under criminal law.

In this case, a police officer, hired, paid, trained, and supervised by an ELECTED mayor, performed actions condoned by an ELECTED prosecutor, and approved by an ELECTED judge. All parties relying on law written by ELECTED representatives and signed by an ELECTED governor.

It is fine to dislike a law, but at some point the public in general needs to start taking some personal responsibility here. If you don't like something, work to get it changed.

Your going to fight an uphill battle, for every lawsuit over $40k, there are tens of millons that nobody raises a stink about, senders or receivers.

Here’s a question to any leo that has been involved in this at Fedex.
How did you get access? Warrant?
Did Fedex cooperate? Ask anything in return?
How many leo personnel involved?
Is this a daily operation?
Could the resources be used better on stopping actual criminal activities locally?

I’m sending these same questions to my representatives and Fedex. Let’s see if they respond.

I have not been personally involved, but Fedex has an interest in cooperating with law enforcement on some level to avoid being held criminally responsible for actions within their network. If their network is being used to further a crime, and they do nothing, bear responsibility for those actions in the eyes of the law (rightly or wrongly).

 

[racegunz]

The think is, it's NOT theft. YOU think it is theft, several people here think it is theft, and there is a lawsuit claiming it amounts to such. Theft has a specific definition under the law, and this is not it.

The officer could have hid the $40k and walked out and pretended it never happened. Clearly theft under criminal law.

In this case, a police officer, hired, paid, trained, and supervised by an ELECTED mayor, performed actions condoned by an ELECTED prosecutor, and approved by an ELECTED judge. All parties relying on law written by ELECTED representatives and signed by an ELECTED governor.

It is fine to dislike a law, but at some point the public in general needs to start taking some personal responsibility here. If you don't like something, work to get it changed.

Your going to fight an uphill battle, for every lawsuit over $40k, there are tens of millons that nobody raises a stink about, senders or receivers.

I have not been personally involved, but Fedex has an interest in cooperating with law enforcement on some level to avoid being held criminally responsible for actions within their network. If their network is being used to further a crime, and they do nothing, bear responsibility for those actions in the eyes of the law (rightly or wrongly).

Yes it’s theft, you and other can pretend it’s not but no one with integrity would agree. Legal? Yes unfortunately but only if the “authorities “ do it. Apply the action to anyone else and it’s theft, soooo it’s theft. It’s fishing at best and if no charges are filed then it’s again…., theft. I’ve contacted my reps we will see what they say. Tyrants never think they are wrong.

 

[Ingomike]

Arrest and seizure don’t, nor should they, require that definitive “proof” of a crime has occurred, but there should be strong evidence that something is amiss. Probable cause of an actual crime in other words.

But the asset seizure has turned this on its head. The characteristics Destro listed from his training would seem to be a reasonable basis to investigate more, like follow the money to destination and see who picks it up. But to simply grab it absent evidence of a crime and say “now prove your money is innocent” is not right.

And to the extent that a police agency gets to keep any part of what it seizes is such an incentive to go out of bounds that it seems corrupt on its face.

No money should be kept that a crime has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. They can seize it with probable cause but to keep it there needs to be an underlying crime proven to meet the fourth amendment standards…

 

[printcraft]

No money should be kept that a crime has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. They can seize it with probable cause but to keep it there needs to be an underlying crime proven to meet the fourth amendment standards…

Nah, the people that directly benefit from taking it say that it’s ok.

 

[racegunz]

Nah, the people that directly benefit from taking it say that it’s ok.

A true sign of the apocalypse, I agree with printcraft’s sarcasm…… lord help us.

 

[Destro]

As an officer, are you forced by your leadership to seize property under civil asset forfeiture if all the boxes are ticked, or do you have discretion?

Properly vetted and trained law enforcement, with effective leadership in quality organizations, deserve maximum discretion under the law when it comes to enforcement. When there is a breakdown in that, your going to have issues.

When you have a poor outcome in a situation, a closer look is probably going to find a breakdown somewhere in that.

 

[racegunz]

My thoughts, if a person or business had to file a lawsuit to attempt to retrieve their legal tender when there was no due process then the system is rigged and corrupt as hell. In this case the system means our elected representatives, the law enforcement leaders and the individual officers involved.

 

[printcraft]

But the war on drugs is going so well.

 

[KLB]

The think is, it's NOT theft. YOU think it is theft, several people here think it is theft, and there is a lawsuit claiming it amounts to such. Theft has a specific definition under the law, and this is not it.

Legal definitions and actual definitions are not necessarily the same. It is theft, even if the government has made it legal for it to do so.

 

[Cameramonkey]

The only way I see this organized theft should continue would be to amend the law to require its return if no underlying charges are filed to justify the theft sorry, "confiscation". For the sake of the discussion, lets set it at 1 year.

OK, you think its drug money. Fine. Prove it. Cant prove it during the next 365 days, you must return it. The victim shouldnt have to pay a lawyer to recover what was not rightfully taken.

 

[racegunz]

But the war on drugs is going so well.

Lucrative if you take your cut at the fedex hub apparently.

 

[racegunz]

The only way I see this organized theft should continue would be to amend the law to require its return if no underlying charges are filed to justify the theft sorry, "confiscation". For the sake of the discussion, lets set it at 1 year.

OK, you think its drug money. Fine. Prove it. Cant prove it during the next 365 days, you must return it. The victim shouldnt have to pay a lawyer to recover what was not rightfully taken.

Can I have 40k of your money interest free for a year please???
Also pretty sure IN wouldn’t have jurisdiction to even pursue charges in most cases.

 

[KLB]

The only way I see this organized theft should continue would be to amend the law to require its return if no underlying charges are filed to justify the theft sorry, "confiscation". For the sake of the discussion, lets set it at 1 year.

OK, you think its drug money. Fine. Prove it. Cant prove it during the next 365 days, you must return it. The victim shouldnt have to pay a lawyer to recover what was not rightfully taken.

Confiscation AFTER conviction, not before.

 

[Leo]

police budgets I believe.

That is what I believe also. So if your department budget is behind and the pressure is on, the legal system has issued incentive to "legally" confiscate other people's property. That ain't right.

Like when I had my motorcycle stolen and I kept checking if they found it. I did find it, in a Lake County contracted storage yard, where it had been since the day I reported it stolen. The County Deputy was that came to my house for the report was the one who called the tow truck and the one that had it hauled to the storage. To make it even better, he and his son had already filled out the paperwork to claim it when it had been in storage long enough. I found it just a short time before they could legally have it. (and I had to pay a big storage bill for indoor storage)

The deputy that tried to steal my motorcycle was personal dishonesty, Policies that demand taking cash away from citizens with no crime charged is corporate dishonesty. That ain't right.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Can I have 40k of your money interest free for a year please???
Also pretty sure IN wouldn’t have jurisdiction to even pursue charges in most cases.

Just finding middle ground. Fine, make it 6 months. Its better than what we have today where IF you can get it back, its only after paying thousands to an attorney to sue to get it back. And even then they dont always return it.

If we cant get it eliminated, we at least need a relief valve to check their privilege. If you take my money I was taking to buy my son a car and file a claim to get it back, there should be a point they are FORCED to give it back or file criminal charges for what they supposedly think I was doing. Put up or shut up.

And if its truly criminal in nature and/or the victim doesnt claim it, they still get to keep it.

 

[buckwacker]

Properly vetted and trained law enforcement, with effective leadership in quality organizations, deserve maximum discretion under the law when it comes to enforcement. When there is a breakdown in that, your going to have issues.

When you have a poor outcome in a situation, a closer look is probably going to find a breakdown somewhere in that.

I noticed you seemed to dance around the question a bit without answering directly. Maybe my question wasn't worded very clearly. Presuming you have participated in this practice as a leo, are you pressured or coerced to make these seizures or are you doing it of your own volition based on your training? If you haven't participated, can you answer the question based on your knowledge or experience with peers who have.

 

[jwamplerusa]

deserve maximum discretion under the law when it comes to enforcement.

Sorry, no. Law enforcement has legal protections the general citizens do not have, therefore they have greater responsibility and accountability to behave in an ethical, moral, and constitionally compliant manner.

Law enforcement should be afforded discretion in the direction which benefits the citizen, think the rule of lenity at the point of contact. (e.g. 40 in a 35, I'm not going to bother writing a ticket)

 

[Destro]

I noticed you seemed to dance around the question a bit without answering directly. Maybe my question wasn't worded very clearly. Presuming you have participated in this practice as a leo, are you pressured or coerced to make these seizures or are you doing it of your own volition based on your training? If you haven't participated, can you answer the question based on your knowledge or experience with peers who have.

I am not going to speak to how other departments operate beyond this, I KNOW I was incredibly lucky with department support. I know other officers face pressures daily that I never faced. If you told me that X Department demanded their officers produce Y results as a "performance standard", I would believe it.

 

[Destro]

Law enforcement should be afforded discretion in the direction which benefits the citizen

I thought that was my answer. If that is not what you took from it, I communicated it poorly.

 

[Shadow01]

We’ve seen it done this way before so you must also be guilty of the same crime until you prove you are not.