Hollow point vs. others

[ingun999]

In a class it was said that you should carry hollow points. The reasoning is that in a justified shooting, you can be held liable for harm caused by a bullet that travels beyond the initial target. Comments?

 

[SteveM4A1]

It is one of the 4 rules...

 

[goneape]

That is pretty much my understanding in a simplified format. The theory being that there's less chance of the bullet leaving the body and bigger hole. Basically there's less chance of hitting an unintended target. However, on the same note you shouldn't take a shot if you're not aware of what else you may be hitting.

 

[Drail]

Yes but, a hollowpoint that travels through heavy clothing will plug the hollowpoint cavity and will then proceed just like a solid bullet. Using hollowpoints reduces but does not eliminate the possibility of over penetration. Use whatever you can hit with and watch your target backgrounds. If there are innocents behind your target then you must consider the possibilities. Murphy runs the Universe.

 

[pudly]

It is considered a safety measure. It is more damaging to the target, which is more likely to cause incapacitating damage (which is what you are trying for), but less likely to pass through and harm secondary targets. This is also the reason that police use them.

Yes but, a hollowpoint that travels through heavy clothing will plug the hollowpoint cavity and will then proceed just like a solid bullet. Using hollowpoints discourages but does not eliminate the possibility of over penetration. Use whatever you can hit with and watch your target backgrounds. If there are innocents behind your target then you must consider the possibilities.

This is partially true of older hollow points and much less so of newer brands. Newer ones are much better about handling heavy clothes. ShootingTheBull410 has excellent ballistic test videos comparing various hollow points against both bare and cloth-covered gelatin for both .380 and 9mm loads.

 

[Woobie]

Yes but, a hollowpoint that travels through heavy clothing will plug the hollowpoint cavity and will then proceed just like a solid bullet. Using hollowpoints reduces but does not eliminate the possibility of over penetration. Use whatever you can hit with and watch your target backgrounds. If there are innocents behind your target then you must consider the possibilities. Murphy runs the Universe.

There are some modern offerings, such as Hornady Critical Duty/Defense which incorporate a polymer tip that will keep the tip from plugging, while encouraging expansion in soft tissue.

 

[HoughMade]

In a class it was said that you should carry hollow points. The reasoning is that in a justified shooting, you can be held liable for harm caused by a bullet that travels beyond the initial target. Comments?

True, but that's only one reason...and not always the case. First, in many circumstances, HPs can zip through the target, so the risk is still there (though reduced). Therefore, I would not fire with disregard of what's behind just because I had HPs. Second, I carry HPs (in a 9mm) because I want as much tissue disruption as I can get. If it's serious enough to fire, it's serious enough to do everything I can to keep the threat from continuing the fight. Third, if I were using a smaller round, like a .380 ACP (some would call it a marginal stopper) I may consider a FMJ or a solid like the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator because I'm not stopping anyone if I don't reach something vital.

I carry Hornady Critical Defense, but there are numerous good rounds out there.

 

[singlesix]

Every bullet that leaves your gun has a lawyer attached to it. Don't know where I read this but very true words.

 

[joe138]

One of the main reasons for expanding bullets is for the bullet to drop or expend all of it's energy into the target. A bullet that travels through the target does not expend all of it's energy in the target. But the 4 safety rules must still be followed especially knowing your target and what is beyond the target.

 

[Tanfodude]

There are some modern offerings, such as Hornady Critical Duty/Defense which incorporate a polymer tip that will keep the tip from plugging, while encouraging expansion in soft tissue.

I thought it's a Flex Tip, didn't know that polymers are that soft. It felt like a rubber.

 

[rhino]

I thought it's a Flex Tip, didn't know that polymers are that soft. It felt like a rubber.

"Polymer" is a term that encompasses a lot of different materials. All rubbers and plastics are polymers, as are a lot of other types of materials.

 

[oldpink]

Hollowpoints are nearly always the preferred projectile for handguns for many reasons, and not just to limit risk of overpenetration.
As others have already posted, you need your bullets to effect the greatest likelihood of stopping a threat, and that always involves tissue disruption, which is maximized with expanding bullets.
Paradoxically, hollowpoints (at least theoretically, since statistics on this one would be nearly impossible to compile) may also make it more likely that the person you shoot will survive, since you may not require quite as many rounds fired to stop the threat as you would with full metal jacket or other non-expanding bullets, due to the much greater effectiveness of the expanding bullets.
They're also more likely to break up when hitting other objects if you miss the bad guy with any of your shots.
What passes for logic from Hollywood and the anti-gunners would lead you to believe that only psychopaths would ever use hollowpoints.
No, responsible people use them.

 

[dudley0]

I good hollow point will not break up. I think that would be self-defeating. The energy dump would not cause the damage you are looking for if it was split into several smaller units. Wound cavity would suck.

This is why we have bonded ammunition now. Everything stays together and you get better expansion.

I would only carry ammo that is on DOCGKR's list. He knows what is going on and has been able to test and compile data from shootings all over the country.

I am a Gold Dot fan boy myself.

The only non-hollow point that I consider carrying is in a snubbie. That is a 148 grain wad cutter. Only because the 2" barrel doesn't allow consistent expansion. I am slowly switching from 135 grain +p GD rounds to the wad cutter. More control and faster follow ups.

Not completely switched there, but working on it.

 

[oldpink]

Totally agreed about Gold Dots.
Those are amazing bullets, and certainly something that Speer should be proud of.

 

[joe138]

Agree with Gold Dots and just about anything DOCGKR says with regard to effective rounds.

 

[NIFT]

Agree with Gold Dots and just about anything DOCGKR says with regard to effective rounds.

This is the correct answer.
Dr. Gary K. Roberts is the director of the Letterman Army Institute of Research on terminal ballistics and one of a very elite group of experts in the field. Everything he recommends has top performance both the lab with 10% Knox Ballistic Gelatin and in large samples of officer involved shootings.

At the very top of the list are both the Gold Dot and the Federal HST.

 

[rhino]

This is the correct answer.
Dr. Gary K. Roberts is the director of the Letterman Army Institute of Research on terminal ballistics and one of a very elite group of experts in the field. Everything he recommends has top performance both the lab with 10% Knox Ballistic Gelatin and in large samples of officer involved shootings.

At the very top of the list are both the Gold Dot and the Federal HST.

Has he evaluated Hornady Critical Duty yet?

 

[sjstill]

I encourage anyone that carries a self-defense firearm to read this;

https://www.swatmag.com/articles/i-am-the-bullet

 

[dudley0]

Has he evaluated Hornady Critical Duty yet?

Here is the latest list from PF that DOCGKR has published:

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Speer Gold Dot 165 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Hornady Critical Duty 220 gr +P JHP
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

 

[NIFT]

Has he evaluated Hornady Critical Duty yet?

Yes. Here is Doc's recap on the Hornady Critical Duty:

"In general, the Hornady Critical Duty ammunition did NOT perform as well as several current JHP loads. The best performing Critical Duty load was the .45 Auto 220 gr +P and the worst performing was the .40 S&W 175 gr. In areas where conventional JHP designs are prohibited, the Hornady Critical Duty joins the Federal EFMJ as an option that is better than the Corbon Powerball or FMJ loads.

The Fed HST line is among the best duty loads currently available for service caliber pistols. HST’s tend to work best using heavier bullets (147 gr, 180 gr, 230 gr) at moderate velocities, with standard pressures."