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Hiking the appalacian trail
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shibumiseeker
Grandmaster
Almost every through-hiker I know has their weight pared down to the barest essentials by the time they are a month or so in. They also tend to get religious about what is "essential" and what isn't. Though I've spent a lot of my life backpacking I wouldn't dream of telling someone else what to carry or not carry if they feel it is important. I was doing a 4 day hike in the Grand Canyon down to the Tonto, down to the river and back up Bright Angel and this guy and his 18 year old son were sorta hiking along with us (same itinerary and evening camp spots). We were doing 12-16 mile days with lots of elevation. My starting total pack weight was 42lbs which was a good average because we were carrying lots of water for the dry camps, and my ending pack weight was 26lbs. That included my P3AT.
This guy hadn't been hiking since the late 70s but wanted to have a last adventure with his kid before kid went off to college. He'd forgotten his hiking boots so was hiking in tennis shoes. All of his gear was from the 70s and was cheap 70s gear at that. He had a whole separate pack attached to his frame pack which was loaded with crap hanging off. One morning at Phantom Ranch camp we were sharing a site as we got the last walk-on site at the backcountry office before the trip and we offered to split the cost with him. He had two coffee mugs, two of the mug-top filter holders, an entire pound of coffee, and entire hundred pack of filters, etc. I hefted his pack one day and without water it must have weighed 70lbs. This guy was not in shape, wasn't a really beefy guy or anything. Yet every morning the girls and I would get up before dawn, break camp and start hiking. On the Tonto you can see for several miles. They would break camp after dawn, and by noon have passed us. Every day. On the last day hiking up Bright Angel which is steep uphill most of the way (4400' over 10 miles), we started a good three hours before they did and they passed us like we were standing still. We are not fast hikers, but we're not super slow either, yet this out of shape dude carrying double the weight I was with crap shoes beat us to the top by 2 hours.
After that I sorta stopped being as much of a gear snob. And I certainly won't ever tell someone else what is essential when it comes to self-defense. I figure that is for everyone to sort out on their own, and in many hundreds of miles of hiking I almost always carry a gun and combat knife of some sort.
This guy hadn't been hiking since the late 70s but wanted to have a last adventure with his kid before kid went off to college. He'd forgotten his hiking boots so was hiking in tennis shoes. All of his gear was from the 70s and was cheap 70s gear at that. He had a whole separate pack attached to his frame pack which was loaded with crap hanging off. One morning at Phantom Ranch camp we were sharing a site as we got the last walk-on site at the backcountry office before the trip and we offered to split the cost with him. He had two coffee mugs, two of the mug-top filter holders, an entire pound of coffee, and entire hundred pack of filters, etc. I hefted his pack one day and without water it must have weighed 70lbs. This guy was not in shape, wasn't a really beefy guy or anything. Yet every morning the girls and I would get up before dawn, break camp and start hiking. On the Tonto you can see for several miles. They would break camp after dawn, and by noon have passed us. Every day. On the last day hiking up Bright Angel which is steep uphill most of the way (4400' over 10 miles), we started a good three hours before they did and they passed us like we were standing still. We are not fast hikers, but we're not super slow either, yet this out of shape dude carrying double the weight I was with crap shoes beat us to the top by 2 hours.
After that I sorta stopped being as much of a gear snob. And I certainly won't ever tell someone else what is essential when it comes to self-defense. I figure that is for everyone to sort out on their own, and in many hundreds of miles of hiking I almost always carry a gun and combat knife of some sort.
If you wanna do some homework, then do some homework. Going back to July 18th, 1980 there have been 32 fatal black bear attacks in all of North America. You know how many of them were along the Appalachian Trail? ZERO! Two happened close to the Appalachian Trail, but not along it (one in the Smokies and one in Cherokee National Forest, TN) Bear attack? Really? You receive partial credit for the response because it was in relation to a bear attack on the AT. But remember....it was not a fatal attack, just a good mauling! I'm not sure, because it's never happened to me before, but I think once you're in the jaws or paws of a bear you're going to forget you're even carrying a gun and stick to the natural survival mode. Like I said, not sure, but it's a pretty good guess.
Randall Lee Smith? Are you kidding me? You drudged up something about a serial killer from more than 30 years ago. One person out of how many millions through the Trail? Let's be pretty liberal here....let's make it 100 serial killers over the last 30 years. For 2013 it was reported somewhere around 2700 hikers attempted to through hike the trail. It's estimated that 2-3 million people hiked some portion of the Trail in 2013 alone. Average it out over the previous 29 years or so and you're talking somewhere in the ballpark of say anywhere from 60 to 90 million people, give or take, hiking at some point along the AT. Let's just say 100 serial killers out of a mere 25 million people. That comes out to about .0004% chance of encounter between a hiker and a serial killer. Buy a lottery ticket instead; your odds are probably about the same. I think you're better off worrying about bears at that point. Besides, do you ever stop and get gas for your car without wearing full body armor and a paranoia of a John Allen Muhammad and Lee Malvo copycat? Bad people have done terrible things to others in every clime and place you could possibly think of. I'm also quite certain that if I cared more to argue the point I could come up with some correlation with the geographical commonalities of where the majority of serial killers are from. Sorry, not buying it. Good try though. The info at least came from a credible source. It just didn't really make a strong case and therefore receive zero credit on that point.
If you feel it's that important that you have to carry the weight, then by all means, hump away. Here...I'll quote myself from my earlier post: "I'm sure I'm going to be flamed for posting such a crazy idea of not carrying a gun on the Appalachian Trail, but like I said earlier....if you're serious about hiking you won't worry about it. Enjoy the Trail. Don't worry about potential violations of local gun laws while carrying something that you won't even need anyways. Don't believe what I have to say.....I'd suggest reading a few books or articles written by hikers that have completed the whole Trail. See how many of them are packing heat in their trek."
If you knew me you'd know that I'm just as much a flag waving, gun toting, Constitutional right to carry whatever, however, wherever individual as the next nut on INGO. My ADVICE was simply that you don't need to carry on the AT. I'd suggest filling that extra weight with a good camera. That's something you'll definitely use quite a bit on the AT. If you want to carry a gun, that's obviously your prerogative. It's no hair off of my backside, just my voice of experience talking.
whitetailbowhunter
Expert
I have hiked well over a hundred miles of the AT and I completely agree with MarineOne. You don't even see many bears anymore. (You used to see them all the time at the shelters when they were caged off because people would feed them). since they opened up the backcountry shelters I have only seen 1 black bear on the trail and they never attempt to do anything. (That's assuming you are hiking in SMNP itself, where you must camp in the shelters). If you want to carry to feel safer, that is totally up to you and I still would, but it isn't essential to stay alive. The only thing it is going to do for you is keep you at ease just knowing that you have it. (which can mean a lot at times).
But MarineOne is spot on. Its not a necessity AT ALL.
But MarineOne is spot on. Its not a necessity AT ALL.
You guys mean I won't need by short barrel AK-47 for hiking? 
I'm one who carries 99.9% of the time. However, having worked in law enforcement, I mostly carry not to protect myself, but to protect my friends and family if I'm out with them. The fact is that I can likely out sprint the vast majority of the people I've had to deal with in a negative fashion in my job. So unless they did some sort of sneaky surprise attack, I hopefully could evade and survive if needed. However, my friends and family members aren't trained as I am, and some couldn't flee as quick as I could, so I carry to protect them if need be. We flew out west towards the end of last year and I did some hiking in Canyonlands NP, alone and up early. I was pretty much by myself. I also did some sightseeing in other national parks. The fact is that I was unarmed, not even a knife, and while I felt odd not having something, it was more because I was so used to having something. However, if I had it to do over again, I would likely have taken the theft risk and flown my LCR out west with us. The issue I have with such rural areas is that help usually isn't nearby, or even close. It could be hours away. It doesn't matter if your chance of being attacked by man or beast is .00001%. If one is the one out of a million, do the other 999,999 still even matter at that point? I wouldn't care what others say about what to carry and what not to carry when backpacking. Carry what one wants. I'm just getting started, and I'm taking a lot of stuff for day packing that some would likely laugh about. I don't care. I have what I have because if I get into a bind, even on a half long day hike, I want options. Maybe after a few long day hikes I will rethink my choices, maybe not. Until then, if I'm driving to a place, I'm taking a gun. Not only that, I might even take a Glock 23 with me....that would be looked upon as weighting 1,000 pounds to some backpackers.
I'm one who carries 99.9% of the time. However, having worked in law enforcement, I mostly carry not to protect myself, but to protect my friends and family if I'm out with them. The fact is that I can likely out sprint the vast majority of the people I've had to deal with in a negative fashion in my job. So unless they did some sort of sneaky surprise attack, I hopefully could evade and survive if needed. However, my friends and family members aren't trained as I am, and some couldn't flee as quick as I could, so I carry to protect them if need be. We flew out west towards the end of last year and I did some hiking in Canyonlands NP, alone and up early. I was pretty much by myself. I also did some sightseeing in other national parks. The fact is that I was unarmed, not even a knife, and while I felt odd not having something, it was more because I was so used to having something. However, if I had it to do over again, I would likely have taken the theft risk and flown my LCR out west with us. The issue I have with such rural areas is that help usually isn't nearby, or even close. It could be hours away. It doesn't matter if your chance of being attacked by man or beast is .00001%. If one is the one out of a million, do the other 999,999 still even matter at that point? I wouldn't care what others say about what to carry and what not to carry when backpacking. Carry what one wants. I'm just getting started, and I'm taking a lot of stuff for day packing that some would likely laugh about. I don't care. I have what I have because if I get into a bind, even on a half long day hike, I want options. Maybe after a few long day hikes I will rethink my choices, maybe not. Until then, if I'm driving to a place, I'm taking a gun. Not only that, I might even take a Glock 23 with me....that would be looked upon as weighting 1,000 pounds to some backpackers.
Well said??? Here's what he said: "Until then, if I'm driving to a place, I'm taking a gun." I guess I got confused and the title of the thread should've been "Driving on the Appalachian Trail." That's sarcasm, by the way. And no, I didn't miss the bulk of what Indy317 had to say. It was the weak argument of lottery odds that something would happen that would require the potential use of a firearm while hiking. Indy317 was saying they would carry a gun because they carry a gun everywhere else, so why not while hiking. I'm assuming that Indy317 showers frequently. Does that mean they take a field shower with them when they hike? I'm guessing and could be wrong, but I'm thinking that the answer is no. But a shower is something that is familiar and routine, so why is that left off of the packing list? It also represents the bigger point that I'm trying to make that you pick and choose what you WANT to carry, and not necessarily what you NEED to carry, while you're hiking.
To me it's a weak argument that just because I'm used to carrying a gun with me everywhere, every day, that I should carry while I'm hiking. And I'm pretty sure that a Glock 23 will feel like a Glock 23, backpacker or not; it still weighs the same. It's simply a matter of wanting/needing to carry needed weight vice unneeded weight.
Lambo - Keep up the good work. You'll get to your 50 "quality" posts soon enough. (Sarcasm, again)
Hmmm....hiking on the Appalachian Trail....I'd consider the Appalachian Trail Conservatory a credible source for questions I might have.....I wonder what they have to say on this matter.....
[h=3]"Can I carry a gun?[/h]ATC strongly discourages hikers from carrying firearms: Most experienced A.T. hikers consider them impractical and unnecessary, and encountering an armed stranger makes many people uncomfortable. To legally carry a firearm on the Trail, you must meet the permitting standards of the state and locality in which you are hiking. On national-park lands, discharging a firearm is illegal, even if you have a legal permit to carry it. Extra efforts may be required to secure weapons in towns to abide by local ordinances and private-property owners' rules. (Firearm rules vary by land ownership. The Trail crosses 14 states and more than 90 state, federal, or local agency lands, with each having its own rules and regulations; you are responsible for knowing and following those rules.) In areas of the Trail corridor where hunting is legal, hikers may see hunters carrying firearms. Hunters must abide by their own set of firearm rules, somewhat separate from firearm-carry rules but also varying by state and county."
Or maybe the National Parks Service:
[h=1]"Firearms Information[/h]
[h=3]"Can I carry a gun?[/h]ATC strongly discourages hikers from carrying firearms: Most experienced A.T. hikers consider them impractical and unnecessary, and encountering an armed stranger makes many people uncomfortable. To legally carry a firearm on the Trail, you must meet the permitting standards of the state and locality in which you are hiking. On national-park lands, discharging a firearm is illegal, even if you have a legal permit to carry it. Extra efforts may be required to secure weapons in towns to abide by local ordinances and private-property owners' rules. (Firearm rules vary by land ownership. The Trail crosses 14 states and more than 90 state, federal, or local agency lands, with each having its own rules and regulations; you are responsible for knowing and following those rules.) In areas of the Trail corridor where hunting is legal, hikers may see hunters carrying firearms. Hunters must abide by their own set of firearm rules, somewhat separate from firearm-carry rules but also varying by state and county."
Or maybe the National Parks Service:
[h=1]"Firearms Information[/h]
| New Firearm Regulations for the National Park Service As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms on portions of the Appalachian National Scenic Trail. This applies to: This only applies to lands owned by the U.S. Government and managed by the National Park Service, Appalachian Trail Park Office. This includes 428 miles of trail, 25 % of the trail’s length in 9 of the 14 trail states. This does not apply to: This does not apply to the Appalachian Trail located on lands owned and managed by the more than 90 other federal, state and local agencies. This includes 1747 miles of trail, 80 % of the trails length across all 14 states. Rules and regulations on these lands are determined by the individual agencies. Please note: The Appalachian National Scenic Trail, a unit of the national park system, is administered by the National Park Service, Appalachian Trail Park Office. The Appalachian Trail spans 2,179 miles across lands administered by 6 other national parks, 8 National Forests, 1 National Wildlife Refuge, and 75 other federal, state, and local agencies. Each one of these agencies has their own rules and regulations which contributes to the complexity of legally carrying a firearm on the Appalachian Trail. It is the responsibility of visitors to understand and comply with all applicable state, local, and federal firearms laws before visiting the Appalachian Trail. What has not changed:
Appalachian Trail Conservancy - FAQs Appalachian Trail Conservancy - Regulations & Permits Firearms Information - Appalachian National Scenic Trail (U.S. National Park Service) |
We get it MarineOne, you wouldn't carry on the trail. Great!
Why so concerned that others may choose to?
I only posted the first two examples I found earlier, and you dismissed one of them for being old, and the other,because the person wasn't killed.
There are plenty of stories of people being killed, robbed, beat up, raped, etc., and incidents with wildlife, on or near the A.T.!
Just because you choose to ignore or dismiss them, doesn't mean they didn't happen! And even if there had never been any violence on the trail before, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future.
We appreciate your opinion, but each hiker can decide for themselves!
Why so concerned that others may choose to?
I only posted the first two examples I found earlier, and you dismissed one of them for being old, and the other,because the person wasn't killed.
There are plenty of stories of people being killed, robbed, beat up, raped, etc., and incidents with wildlife, on or near the A.T.!
Just because you choose to ignore or dismiss them, doesn't mean they didn't happen! And even if there had never been any violence on the trail before, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future.
We appreciate your opinion, but each hiker can decide for themselves!
I hiked a chunk of the A.T. in the late 70's before there were such liberal gun laws.
Honestly if I hiked it again, I'd probably carry a gun, but it would be a pea-shooter like one of my P3ATs or LCPs. If there is anything to worry about its 2 legged predators. Most of those will NOT be on the actual AT, most will be near trail heads, supply points, ATM machines, etc (at least based on crime data I've seen in the past).
As for bears, yeah, I did have 2 run-ins with black bears. One tried to get our food, which I had suspended about 12' off the ground in my back-pack. That same bear shredded our tent (both events occurred on the last night I was on the trail).
On another occasion I came upon a lady who was trying to feed a stick of DoubleMint gun out of her hand to a black bear while her family took photos. In total disbelief I just continued by as quickly as possible.
But bear sightings are not particularly common and bear interaction is even less common. I would NOT consider taking a "bear gun" due to weight. JMO, everyone has their own choices to make. But generally I would agree with nearly everything MarineOne stated.
Honestly if I hiked it again, I'd probably carry a gun, but it would be a pea-shooter like one of my P3ATs or LCPs. If there is anything to worry about its 2 legged predators. Most of those will NOT be on the actual AT, most will be near trail heads, supply points, ATM machines, etc (at least based on crime data I've seen in the past).
As for bears, yeah, I did have 2 run-ins with black bears. One tried to get our food, which I had suspended about 12' off the ground in my back-pack. That same bear shredded our tent (both events occurred on the last night I was on the trail).
On another occasion I came upon a lady who was trying to feed a stick of DoubleMint gun out of her hand to a black bear while her family took photos. In total disbelief I just continued by as quickly as possible.
But bear sightings are not particularly common and bear interaction is even less common. I would NOT consider taking a "bear gun" due to weight. JMO, everyone has their own choices to make. But generally I would agree with nearly everything MarineOne stated.
Simmer down Dirtebiker. I dismissed your links because they sucked. If you're going to make a case, make a case. Simply posting a link is a pretty weak argument when you don't take the time to expand on it with your own thought. They clearly didn't make a strong enough case to stand on their own. And by the way, maybe you should read my posts a little closer. I never once said DON'T CARRY A GUN. It was my advice, based off of my experience hiking on the Appalachian Trail (and other places) and a few minutes worth of research to leave the unneeded weight at home. In fact, I said it a few times a few different ways. I even typed the word ADVICE in upper case letters so that it would not be misconstrued as a statement of fact. Don't get butt-hurt cause I successfully refuted your sucky post with some good ole simple logical thought. Like I said, if you want to do some research, do some research.
I knew commenting on this post would strike a nerve with more than a few people. I'm cool with that, otherwise I'd have said nothing. I had no intentions on starting a fight on here. I just wanted to bring up some valid points that the original poster might want to keep in mind as it pertains to his question. Clearly I'm not the only one with this SUPPORTED ADVICE. For crying out loud the Appalachian Trail Conservatory backs everything I've said. I'd consider that worthy of mentioning.
How about this one.....how about carrying a can of bear spray/pepper spray? That would serve the same self defense purpose in a lighter, just as effective, more convenient manner than carrying a gun while you hike. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
shibumiseeker
Grandmaster
My bear spray weighs more than my LCP and while I have more confidence in it against grizzly, a gun carries more authority against people.
In grizzly country I carry both a full size can of bear spray AND my 10mm with really hot 200gr loads. And I've backpacked many miles with them and didn't worry about the weight. In non-grizzly country it's just the LCP. Honestly, my pack weight varies more through water throughout the day.
There's something about the weeks and months of monotonous miles that seem to make every AT through-hiker I know to obsess about pack weight because when you have that much time inside of your own head it is an easy thing to focus on. Yet now many through-hikers carry more weight in electronics, yet another hot controversy among the purists.
Like I said, it's like religion, either you believe or you don't and evangalizing won't sway many folks. They need to come to it on their own if they ever will.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Well, almost all of it. I don't necessarily agree that a gun carries more authority against people. I think it could have the possibility of causing more problems that solving them. Some people are hot heads that would push the issue and force your hand if you had a gun. I'd rather use my wits and my fists, if it came to that. I'm sure you might sway the unlucky individual that gets sprayed about the level of authority a can of bear spray carries.
Grizzly territory is completely different than black bear territory. I, too, would also be hiking heavy in grizzly territory. No question about that.
I was not sure how much a can of bear spray would weigh....I figured it would probably be close to some of the smaller semi-autos.
Those that hike with a gun, where do you keep it? Is it in your pack? Do you carry it on a hip or in a pocket? Is it quickly accessible? Just curious....
Never mind. It's not worth it.
you win!
My 11 year old daughter rolls her eyes at me too.
shibumiseeker
Grandmaster
My LCP is in a pouch on one of the shoulder straps. When I am carrying my G20 it rides in a holster inside one of the hip belt stabilizer straps. When I want to be discreet, my bandana covers it.
Bear spray actually isn't very good against people, it is not designed to be sprayed directly on the bear but to lay down a mist of pepper such that the bear does not associate the pain with you. Properly deployed the bear encounters a wall of mist that causes it to stop as it inhales, giving it something else to think about. To that end it doesn't work against people nearly as well as spray designed for that task which either sprays a stream or tighter focus.
I prefer to avoid trouble in the first place, and will go to great lengths to avoid it, and I don't go to fists unless that's the only thing I have. I fight for my life, not recreation.
Good to know about the bear spray...learning has occurred on my part.
I, too, prefer to avoid trouble. Even though I'm supposed to be the trained killer U.S. Marine, I'm still more of a lover than a fighter. I kill them with my great sense of humor and charming personality.
I'm with you, my LCP in the small pouch is light enough and provides the same protection I have any other day of the week.
