As I read the new "rule" and "definitions," private sales are effectively outlawed. The ATF wrote itself a bunch of "presumptions" they can use to "prove" a private sale is effectively "in the firearms business," and therefore requires an FFL. If you don't have an FFL, and they feel like you've "engaged in the business," they can charge you.I’m still confused, it seems like this would effectively outlaw the use of classifieds to sell guns without ffl transfer. It might still be legal if you know someone, close friends or something. When does this go into effect? I’ve literally traded hundreds of guns over the years on armslist and like websites. Especially before Armslist was a pay site. I never did it for money. It was always to fine tune my collection, trade for something that peaked my interest at the time, or upgrade. Honestly I’ve always known that the days of meeting people in the middle of the night at Walmart parking lots to trade guns was probably numbered…. I’m still bummed about it because it is such a fun hobby for me. Having to meet at a gun shop to fill out forms makes it less fun, and will definitely prohibit some people just due to scheduling. And I’m guessing the shops will take advantage and their rates will go up.
You mean it’s really not as simple as two individuals agreeing upon a price fair to both when selling legally-owned private property?Intent? If you are just selling at market value, is it your intent to make a profit?
I would think that a sale would be similar to silver / gold sales between people. If just selling to a friend at market value and just so happens the market value is higher than what you paid, well, good for you. Now if you wish to add something like $2.00 over spot, well, that IMO is an intentional profit.
If you are adding value over and above the market value, well, that is indeed selling for a profit. If not adding a dollar, then it’s just a sale at fair market value.
If you buy at wholesale and sell at retail….well, 4473 is a must.
Dats how I see it.
If it werent for double standards, they wouldnt have any at all.Hillary Clinton violates the espionage act, but no "reasonable" prosecutor would charge her because the intent was not there (even though it clearly was). But if you sell a gun and have no intent to be in the business of selling firearms, you can be prosecuted? The same "reasonable prosecutor" that won't prosecute Clinton for a major crime, will prosecute you for a crime that is not really a crime, but rather a sneaky way for the Feds to get around Congress and get private gun sales banned. This country is losing it's mind. Now, how many feds are looking at the classified section of this website right now and building cases against people that are selling a gun to finance the purchase of another gun they want? Anyone have any idea yet or do we have to wait for these good people to be charged with crimes, then talk about it in the forums here, assuming they're not put under a gag order by the federal court.
It's impossible to enforce if you're selling a gun to someone you know offline. However, if you advertise selling it online, it's not that hard to charge someone. The Fed could end up being the buyer. The Fed could just monitor the ad for the sale and note that you mark the gun as sold after you sell it. That gives them probable cause to get a warrant to get into your messages, find who you sold it to and prove that you sold the gun privately. This new rule will shut down all online private sales once the Feds begin arresting and prosecuting good people that are just selling an old gun they don't shoot anymore.Without a full blown registry they have to know this is literally impossible to enforce.
This is just designed as political terror to prevent you from exercising your constitutional rights. I'd say give them the middle finger and go on with your life.
I like these guys' take on stuff. In this video they go through some of the definitions of terms in the new rule. If they're reading and explaining it correctly, your "self defense" firearm sale from your "personal collection" will require a FFL transfer/BG check.
It's impossible to enforce if you're selling a gun to someone you know offline. However, if you advertise selling it online, it's not that hard to charge someone. The Fed could end up being the buyer. The Fed could just monitor the ad for the sale and note that you mark the gun as sold after you sell it. That gives them probable cause to get a warrant to get into your messages, find who you sold it to and prove that you sold the gun privately. This new rule will shut down all online private sales once the Feds begin arresting and prosecuting good people that are just selling an old gun they don't shoot anymore.
I hated that I had to do it, but when I was in my 1st apartment after moving away from home, I had to sell my Egyptian Maadi AK47 to pay rent one month. I sold it at a loss and did not want to sell it, but I needed the money fast. Today, I think the Feds would prosecute me for that.
I don't think there's a need to be doing anything "legally questionable" anymore. As I'm reading the new regulation, simply posting a firearm for sale on line shows "intent" to profit, and therefore puts the poster into the "in the business" category (i.e. needs an FFL).If someone is doing legally questionable activity and posting about it online, that's darwinism at work, unless you're the brave soul fishing for a SCOTUS case.
One thing that has not been brought up. If selling firearms needs a FFL. What happened some years ago when they got rid of the "kitchen table" firearms sellers?? Now it sounds like they are back tracking on that? They don't know which way they are pointing?
...you could be charged as an unlicensed firearms dealer.
IANAL but, IMO, a background check alone doesn't satisfy this. The seller must hold the FFL if they meet the definition of selling with intent to profit.Again, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm SUPER conservative, but, IMHO, any FTF sales resulting from online postings now, according the DOJ, require a NICS check, or you could be charged as an unlicensed firearms dealer.
I do think that the intent of this is to force universal background checks at some point.