shootersix
Master
- Mar 10, 2009
- 4,538
- 113
Fair enough, but there's going to have to be more than "they made it legal and utopia didn't arise" for me to accept that we're seeing a negative impact on society in the states where it's been legalized. I'd say it's borderline impossible, with all of the insanity that has taken place in the past four years to try to pinpoint any specific driver or pin any appreciable amount of blame on one issue.I would disagree that the fabric of society is not collapsing, and further I would stipulate that the longer a state has had recreational marijuana the more advanced its state of collapse has become
Correlation is not causation but neither is it indicative of nothing
I'm ok with civil disobedience, I do it all the time when I exceed the speed limit. If/when I get a ticket for it I'll take my lumps and if I feel strongly enough about it I'll go to court so I can voice my opinion on speed limits to the judge. I used to light illegal fireworks at times also, I know, I should be in prison.So the answer to all this relies on how one feels about laws (or anything for that matter). I never felt it was wrong so it's ok that I lied on the 4473, besides people are coming around to my way of thinking!
Can you imagine, just for a moment, if all of society lived by that feeling? HEY, wait a moment! Society is! And most people on INDGO at one time or another spoke out against that same kind of rhetoric.
When is it ok and when is it not? And who decides?
Do we continue to break a law until there is no law? Where else are we seeing this? And we call ourselves different, law abiding, constitutionalists? PALEASE!
There are also a lot of people here on INGO that have said that if guns/magazines/etc. are banned, that they will not comply. So indeed, it is acceptable (to some or maybe most here) to break a law until there is no law (or if something is made illegal that previously was legal).So the answer to all this relies on how one feels about laws (or anything for that matter). I never felt it was wrong so it's ok that I lied on the 4473, besides people are coming around to my way of thinking!
Can you imagine, just for a moment, if all of society lived by that feeling? HEY, wait a moment! Society is! And most people on INDGO at one time or another spoke out against that same kind of rhetoric.
When is it ok and when is it not? And who decides?
Do we continue to break a law until there is no law? Where else are we seeing this? And we call ourselves different, law abiding, constitutionalists? PALEASE!
So whose moral meter do we follow? Yours? Mine? By being a citizen we have agreed to certain requirements or rules. Are they all bad? No. Are they all good? No. But it is not up to each individual to make the decision what they will follow and not.I'm ok with civil disobedience, I do it all the time when I exceed the speed limit. If/when I get a ticket for it I'll take my lumps and if I feel strongly enough about it I'll go to court so I can voice my opinion on speed limits to the judge. I used to light illegal fireworks at times also, I know, I should be in prison.
There was a time when being considered a law abiding citizens meant something to me. That was back before I realized the depth of the depravity of our government. I have my morals and ethics which I have no problem following regardless of the law and fortunately, for now at least, that hasn't put me in violation of the law.
Some laws are needed, some laws are garbage, our founding fathers knew it.
I get it, truly I do. I think I feel if the law is hurting people, suppressing people and creating a danger, I too would do the same. I just cannot find in me the support for people breaking the law so they can get high on weed. There is no societal benefit.There are also a lot of people here on INGO that have said that if guns/magazines/etc. are banned, that they will not comply. So indeed, it is acceptable (to some or maybe most here) to break a law until there is no law (or if something is made illegal that previously was legal).
Apples and oranges. I can easily see RKBA given a prominent place in the BoR, not so much the 'right' to a psychoactive crutchThere are also a lot of people here on INGO that have said that if guns/magazines/etc. are banned, that they will not comply. So indeed, it is acceptable (to some or maybe most here) to break a law until there is no law (or if something is made illegal that previously was legal).
Why does it have to be a "crutch"? Why can't it be something that some folks just enjoy, no different than enjoying a good cigar or a fine wine or brandy? By your logic, anything that gives one pleasure, whether it's something consumed or an activity one enjoys is a "crutch".Apples and oranges. I can easily see RKBA given a prominent place in the BoR, not so much the 'right' to a psychoactive crutch
This is where your ignorance and indoctrination are holding you back.I just cannot find in me the support for people breaking the law so they can get high on weed. There is no societal benefit.
I just see it that way among people I know/knew. If I was required to give up drinking alcohol tomorrow on pain of losing my job or my clearance or my 2A rights, it would literally be a no-brainer. I might miss it a little for a while, but I certainly wouldn't risk burning down my life in order to sneak around and still drink. Many of the people I knew who were the proverbial 'productive family man holding down a good job' were not able to do the same. They reminded me of high functioning alcoholics, who have a problem but just hide it well. The difference to me was about who or what was in control, not the stories they told themselvesWhy does it have to be a "crutch"? Why can't it be something that some folks just enjoy, no different than enjoying a good cigar or a fine wine or brandy? By your logic, anything that gives one pleasure, whether it's something consumed or an activity one enjoys is a "crutch".
Fair enough. Like alcohol, some people will abuse it to their detriment, while others will not. Prohibition and the subsequent ending of prohibition did not change that for alcohol, nor will it with marijuana. That's a personality and/or physical issue, not a substance issue.I just see it that way among people I know/knew. If I was required to give up drinking alcohol tomorrow on pain of losing my job or my clearance or my 2A rights, it would literally be a no-brainer. I might miss it a little for a while, but I certainly wouldn't risk burning down my life in order to sneak around and still drink. Many of the people I knew who were the proverbial 'productive family man holding down a good job' were not able to do the same. They reminded me of high functioning alcoholics, who have a problem but just hide it well. The difference to me was about who or what was in control, not the stories they told themselves
I'm not saying my personal experience applies to you or anyone else because I don't know you, but neither do I believe that the many bright young engineers I knew in school were uniquely weak minded - and many of them were unable to put down the pipe before it ruined them
Exact same thing can be said for alcohol but at much, much higher rates. What can't be said for alcohol is that it does hold therapeutic benefit for many.I'm not saying my personal experience applies to you or anyone else because I don't know you, but neither do I believe that the many bright young engineers I knew in school were uniquely weak minded - and many of them were unable to put down the pipe before it ruined them
I didn't lay a hand on you!ETA: DD beat me
And here you are today a great (in at least my opinion) INGO Orator.If I may relate a story from my distant past (1979) to illustrate that not everything is a "crutch"...
I was enrolled in an advanced English/writing class at Purdue and for our final paper, we could choose any of the types of papers we had written over the course of the semester. I chose descriptive/creative. The title of my paper was "My First Acid Trip".
The first time I ever did acid, I did an entire 4-way (4 hits - IYKYK) of blotter acid. For the uninitiated, that's a lot. In my paper, I simply described what I saw and experienced. I mostly wrote about the visual effects (hallucinations) - things like a stucco texture on a wall "dripping", or a pattern in a rug "moving", seeing "tracers" when I'd move my hand in front of my eyes, seeing the pores on peoples' faces look like the skin of an orange, where I could "see" every pore. Stuff like that.
I didn't make any wild claims, like "seeing God" or "understanding the Universe"... none of that BS. I got an A+ on the paper. My professor said that it was the most objective paper on drugs that he had ever seen, because it didn't make any of those wild claims. It was just describing the experience and nothing more. I was kinda nerdy back then (ha!) and I'd actually observe myself - taking my pulse, making note of my breathing and other physical things that I was experiencing. So for me, it was never a "crutch". It was simply an experience.
So, what was oyur grade on that paper?If I may relate a story from my distant past (1979) to illustrate that not everything is a "crutch"...
I was enrolled in an advanced English/writing class at Purdue and for our final paper, we could choose any of the types of papers we had written over the course of the semester. I chose descriptive/creative. The title of my paper was "My First Acid Trip".
The first time I ever did acid, I did an entire 4-way (4 hits - IYKYK) of blotter acid. For the uninitiated, that's a lot. In my paper, I simply described what I saw and experienced. I mostly wrote about the visual effects (hallucinations) - things like a stucco texture on a wall "dripping", or a pattern in a rug "moving", seeing "tracers" when I'd move my hand in front of my eyes, seeing the pores on peoples' faces look like the skin of an orange, where I could "see" every pore. Stuff like that.
I didn't make any wild claims, like "seeing God" or "understanding the Universe"... none of that BS. I got an A+ on the paper. My professor said that it was the most objective paper on drugs that he had ever seen, because it didn't make any of those wild claims. It was just describing the experience and nothing more. I was kinda nerdy back then (ha!) and I'd actually observe myself - taking my pulse, making note of my breathing and other physical things that I was experiencing. So for me, it was never a "crutch". It was simply an experience.
I'm seeing A+ there.So, what was oyur grade on that paper?