Crazy for wanting Apex 10 when new?

[keeph8n]

Been looking at presses for awhile now and I’m debating between the Apex 10 from Mark 7 and the RL1100 from Dillon Precision.

Watched a ton of reviews, setups, complaints, praises, and I honestly don’t think I could go wrong with either, but I’d like some of y’all’s opinions.

Mainly reloading 9mm, 5.56, .308. Considering things like 6.5CM and 300WM later on. This will be my first press.

 

[42253]

Dillon Rl 1100

 

[STFU]

Do you need 8 or 10 stations?

Honestly, if you are new to reloading and this is your "first press," you might want to get the hand of reloading on a solid single stage press.
As someone who always loads on a progressive...there are times I definitely want a single stage press (and looking to get one now).

 

[42253]

Do you need 8 or 10 stations?

Honestly, if you are new to reloading and this is your "first press," you might want to get the hand of reloading on a solid single stage press.
As someone who always loads on a progressive...there are times I definitely want a single stage press (and looking to get one now).

I started with a processive press it was my first. I loaded one at a time until I got used to it. Since then, I got a single stage press and find many uses for it.

 

[Jarvitron]

I've spent a lot of money coming to the conclusion I want an Apex 10. Keep in mind that there's a ton of support hardware you need on top of the purchase price to make it actually work (hold down dies and bullet feeders) - and that you will never outgrow the need for a single stage press even if you do have your progressive working perfectly.

So buy an RCBS now and save your swearjar money for the Apex.

 

[STFU]

I've spent a lot of money coming to the conclusion I want an Apex 10. Keep in mind that there's a ton of support hardware you need on top of the purchase price to make it actually work (hold down dies and bullet feeders) - and that you will never outgrow the need for a single stage press even if you do have your progressive working perfectly.

So buy an RCBS now and save your swearjar money for the Apex.

^^^THIS!^^^

I bought an Apex10 in March when they were having a sale that included the MrBulletfeeder for 1/2 off. (The MBF is outstanding. I should have spent that money years ago.)

I will caveat this next part by saying that I have the budget for this...and it still chaps my ass when I want to add another caliber to the list. (And I only reload four calibers.) But...it is, what it is. I am much happier now and the ammo I produce is far, far, more consistent.

But, let's put this into perspective...here is what it will take for me to add 45ACP next:

MFG	MODEL	DESCRIPTION	QTY	PRICE	EXTENDED	DISCOUNT	SUB-TOTAL	TAX	TOTAL
Mark7 Reloading	Spare Tool Head	Billet CNC Aluminum Toolhead for Apex 10	1​	274.99​	274.99​	0.00​	274.99​	19.25​	294.24​
Mark7 Reloading	Caliber Conversion Kit	Apex 10 Caliber Conversion Kit for 45 ACP	1​	214.95​	214.95​	0.00​	214.95​	15.05​	230.00​
Mark7 Reloading	Case feeder caliber plate	11" Large Pistol Feeder Plate	1​	39.95​	39.95​	0.00​	39.95​	2.80​	42.75​
Lyman Reloading	Pro Die pack	Lyman Pro Die Pack - 45 ACP	1​	319.95​	319.95​	85.96​	233.99​	16.38​	250.37​
Double Alpha Academy	Standard Conversion Kit	Pistol .45 ACP	1​	169.95​	169.95​	0.00​	169.95​	11.90​	181.85​
Double Alpha Academy	DAA Magnetic Powder Check 2.0	Powder Check	1​	69.95​	69.95​	-5.00​	64.95​	4.55​	69.50​
Double Alpha Academy	DAA Toolhead LED PCB - Apex10	Lighting System for Apex10	1​	29.95​	29.95​		29.95​	2.10​	32.05​
FW Arms	Standard PRIMER POPPER	Auto-Case Centering Decapper/Deprimer	1​	69.99​	69.99​	0.00​	69.99​	0.00​	69.99​
FW Arms	Dynamic Spring Hold Down	Full Unit	1​	91.79​	91.79​	0.00​	91.79​	0.00​	91.79​
					$ 1,281.47	$ 80.96	$ 1,190.51	$ 72.01	$ 1,262.52

And that is just to add one more caliber...ouch.

A few things to keep in mind:

• The Lyman Pro Series Dies are very expensive. Go with what you like. I chose the Lyman dies...not sure I made the right choice. See this thread: https://www.indianagunowners.com/th...ase-gauges-are-superior-to-all-others.553004/
• And with that said: Don't mess around...get the Sheridan Slotted Case Gauges.
• I already have the DAA light controller...the price above is just an additional LED PCB for the extra toolhead.
• You can get less expensive hold down dies and decapping dies...just make sure the decapping die is spring loaded. This makes a huge difference.
• If you are loading multiple projectile types (EG: 220gr vs 150gr 300BLK) you will want to pick up extra "Nose Guides" for the MBF and label them per projectile. By having a few extras, you can swap them in/out vs having to adjust the nose guide set screw every time you change.
• The priming system takes some time to set correctly. Not difficult, but time consuming. Now that I am several months in...not a single issue.

I'm sure I am forgetting a few items but...YMMV anyways.

 

[Jarvitron]

If you have like nothing-nothing right now, there's always "look for a used setup on marketplace" or here on the classifieds (ahem that LnL AP with case feeder and extras is a crazy good deal), which might come with some of the accessory crap you'll need that won't come with an Apex such as

- Digital scale
- Tumbler (wet or dry or both)
- Impact puller/cam puller (you will end up making stuff you need to pull)
- Calipers/comparator sets
- Brass/projectiles
- reloading manuals

This is going to sound like boomer talk but I was setting up my reloading area to put together a load and the stupid Hornady app just stopped working on my phone for some reason. When I went upstairs to get my laptop - hodgdon reloading was down for maintenence too, and I literally grabbed the ancient Speer reloading book I got with a batch of dies for free and used that data and it worked out fine. They don't have all the modern powders but boyee it's nice to have some already-printed-out load data to compare to sometimes.

 

[LokhXIV]

... I am much happier now and the ammo I produce is far, far, more consistent.

If you don't mind me asking, how much more consistent would you say it is over the LnL? I've been pretty happy with it so far, so I'm not specifically looking to add another press at the moment. I know I will eventually, because who doesn't buy more things for the hobbies they enjoy.

I was talking to a friend about the Apex and we both agreed it looks awesome. It'd be nice to hear from someone who's had experience with both so I can get a good reference point.

 

[Creedmoor]

I'll take the blue reloading company that's been building progressive reloading machines for 40+ years.

And look at Dillons carbide dies. Easy take apart to clean and no reset is needed. Pistol sizing/depriming have had a spring loaded priming punch for decades now.

I love Dillons carbide rifle dies.

 

[STFU]

If you don't mind me asking, how much more consistent would you say it is over the LnL? I've been pretty happy with it so far, so I'm not specifically looking to add another press at the moment. I know I will eventually, because who doesn't buy more things for the hobbies they enjoy.

I was talking to a friend about the Apex and we both agreed it looks awesome. It'd be nice to hear from someone who's had experience with both so I can get a good reference point.

That is really a two part question in my view:

1. My biggest issue with the LnL was the inconsistency of the press itself.
2. Then there is the lack of consistency with the ammo coming off of the LnL.

So let's tackle these as pros and cons:
LnL PROs:
I really, really like the premise of the LnL AP. Being able to pop out a die and swap quickly was amazing. EG: I could pop out the seating/crimp die and pop in my RCBS bullet puller die in seconds. That made life super easy when I wanted to check consistency, crimp, charge, etc. Again, changing over from one 9mm to 300BLK took only a matter of minutes. The hardest part was changing the shell-plate...and that really was not hard either.
Hornady has great customer service. (But so does Mark7, so does Dillon, so does Lyman...etc.)

LnL CONs:
There is far too much variance in the machine tolerances. Starting with the LnL bushings. The bushings themselves are not consistent enough for my taste. That great customer service I mentioned above...they sent me shims for the bushings. Why did I need shims? Because I could visibly see the sizing die moving up and down in the press. DOWN TIME that I was not able to use the press.
The bullet feeder worked great; after a crap ton of adjustments. Which, by-the-way, had to be adjusted for each projectile profile. The bullet dropper OTOH was junk. The inner collets broke several times. Again, CS replaced them at no charge, but again...down time that I was not able to use the press.
Because the dies are able to move around in the stations, I could not produce ammo that I was happy with in terms of spec or stats. And let me say that again: "I" was not happy with it. Most people are probably very happy producing ammo on a LnL. I happen to be rather CDO and expect better. I want super consistent average velocities. I want single digit SDs. Yes, even for my pistol ammo. (I would buy a good used Camdex machine if it had ANY wife acceptance factor. LOL)

In short, I felt like I was spending more time fiddle-f'ing around with the press, than I was spending on actually producing cartridges! AND...what I was producing was not meeting MY expectations.


Now, with that out of the way...let's talk about the Mark7.
I seriously considered both the Dillon RL1100 and the Mark7 Apex10. When I did price comparisons on both, I found that I was only a couple of hundred dollars different in pricing. On average I would estimate that I will probably spend 10% more for the Apex10 parts, accessories, etc over the RL1100. Seriously...I worked up some spreadsheets comparing apples to apples on this. (IIRC, Ultimate Reloader has a YouTube video that compares the presses, adding additional calibers, etc.)

(I will caveat this next section with the fact that only a small portion of what I load uses new brass. I pickup and recycle range brass. That means extra steps in my process.)

For me, the ultimate decision came down to flexibility. I wanted to be able to do all functions that I desired on one press.
I want to have separate stations for decapping, swaging, expansion, powder check, seating, and crimping. Those are in addition to the standard steps that include: case insertion, sizing, priming, powder drop.
That adds up to 10 stations. And THAT is the ultimate reason I chose the Apex10 over the RL1100.

Also remember that I can add a motor drive and sensors to automate the Apex10.
Yes, you can do that on an RL1100 as well, but who is making the drive and sensors? Oh right...Mark7.

I am not going to tell you that it is all roses with the "Black Press."

The Apex10 I received, after a rather long wait, arrived with a couple of parts missing. The hex screw that holds the handle in place was missing! WTF? They over-nighted that to me.

A few days later, I needed to make adjustments to the priming system. Some of these adjustments mean taking off the shell-plate. No problem, they have great videos on YT explaining this process step-by-step. Easy-peasy.

The issue was that I found I was missing a component when I went to reassemble the press: The wave spring that sits under the shell plate was never installed before it left the factory! Again, WTAF? I took pictures, sent those over and they called me within an hour or so. Very apologetic. They also wanted to see if the shim under the shell-plate was damaged and requested pictures of that. Both parts were over-nighted to me.

Tom Carlson at Mark7 knows me by name. He called me directly after I provided them with constructive feedback on the product I received. He has even invited me to come down to the plant in Ft Meyers, Fl the next time I am down there (I have family in Tampa, St Pete, and Sarasota.)

So, no...none of the big names are perfect. Hornady handle the problem appropriately, but I never felt like I was being heard. Mark7 seems to be listening though. And maybe that is because Mark7 is relatively new, and small by comparison. Only time will tell.

Am I happier with my setup? Absolutely. Once you get the Apex10 "dialed-in," there is nothing to do but pull the handle!
So is my ammo better? Yes. My SDs are down and average velocities are closer to what I expect.
Is it worth the upgrade cost? It is to me. YMMV. (No more fiddling around. It is locked in place and just works.)

 

[STFU]

The following data was derived by:

1. Sets of 10 rounds each
2. Chrono'd using my Garmin Xero
3. Normalized by throwing out the high and the low

9mm 124gr SD went from 14.8 down to 9.5
300BLK 220gr SD went from 24.1 down to 8.4 (one set as low as 6.1)

 

[LokhXIV]

...

Am I happier with my setup? Absolutely. Once you get the Apex10 "dialed-in," there is nothing to do but pull the handle!
So is my ammo better? Yes. My SDs are down and average velocities are closer to what I expect.
Is it worth the upgrade cost? It is to me. YMMV.

Thank you for the detailed response, I appreciate you taking the time.

Everything you said is more or less what I was expecting. Though I was happy to hear Mark7 has such great CS and seems to appreciate their customers so well.

I agree about the bushings having too much movement. I ended up using metric O rings that are slightly bigger to lock them down better. It seems to work pretty well so far, but I wish it was a step I didn't need in the first place.

It's definitely gonna be down the road before I add anything like the Apex to my current setup, but it definitely sounds nice. Maybe by that time you'll have found something even better and I can buy that one off ya lol.

 

[STFU]

Thank you for the detailed response, I appreciate you taking the time.

Everything you said is more or less what I was expecting. Though I was happy to hear Mark7 has such great CS and seems to appreciate their customers so well.

I agree about the bushings having too much movement. I ended up using metric O rings that are slightly bigger to lock them down better. It seems to work pretty well so far, but I wish it was a step I didn't need in the first place.

It's definitely gonna be down the road before I add anything like the Apex to my current setup, but it definitely sounds nice. Maybe by that time you'll have found something even better and I can buy that one off ya lol.

One last thought...the Hornady bullet feeder dies: they are junk. I did not know that earlier but now that I have a Mr Bullet Feeder; I do know.

I want to give you one piece of advice for the LnL AP:
Do yourself a huge favor, before you spend on anything else, get a MBF the next time they go on sale!

At minimum, get the MBF Dropper Assembly:

Mr. Bulletfeeder Gen 1/2 - Dropper Assembly

The Dropper Assembly is needed for shooters who wish to set up a second tool-head in the same caliber, and wish to quickly transition from, say, 9mm to .38super. Or from one 9mm bullet to another. A change is needed to the collator parts, and if a 2nd tool-head is to be used on the progress...

www.doublealpha.biz

Save yourself a lot of time and headaches...you will not regret buying this one.

 

[Creedmoor]

I ordered a new Dillon 1100 in 223 with no dies included on Monday.
I ordered it that way because I already have Dillon carbide 223 dies.
Yesterday I was emailed by Dillon that my press had been built and it was shipped. It should be on my front porch tues morning. Three boxes of stuff will be in that shipment. Most likely it will be a week or two before I open it all up and bolt it down. For the most part this press will be used mainly for processing in 9mm, 223/5.56 and 308/7.62x51
I will post pics and what I have to go through while setting it up and installing the trimmer and other accessory's.
I'm a Dillon guy, no doubt about that. Lots of firsts over those years with Dillon, seems when Dillons patent is up, the others always follow suit.
I will say if I ever had any problems with anything that Dillon sold me, they always made it right.

Edit,
I forgot Dillons deal.

It’s Your Choice​

You can struggle along with someone else’s press, or make your life easier with a progressive RL1100. If you’re thinking about a competitor’s reloader, before you put your money down, consider this: Dillon will let you try the RL1100 for 30 days. If it doesn’t live up to our claims – or your expectations – return it. We’ll refund your money.

 

[LokhXIV]

One last thought...the Hornady bullet feeder dies: they are junk. I did not know that earlier but now that I have a Mr Bullet Feeder; I do know.

I want to give you one piece of advice for the LnL AP:
Do yourself a huge favor, before you spend on anything else, get a MBF the next time they go on sale!

At minimum, get the MBF Dropper Assembly:

Mr. Bulletfeeder Gen 1/2 - Dropper Assembly

The Dropper Assembly is needed for shooters who wish to set up a second tool-head in the same caliber, and wish to quickly transition from, say, 9mm to .38super. Or from one 9mm bullet to another. A change is needed to the collator parts, and if a 2nd tool-head is to be used on the progress...

www.doublealpha.biz

Save yourself a lot of time and headaches...you will not regret buying this one.

I've actually been thinking about doing just that. I'm currently waiting to see if they go on sale. I had hoped for labor day, but I haven't seen anything yet. If I don't see a sale by black Friday, I'll probably just buy one anyway.

I don't mind doing a little tinkering to tune things in, but if something is just plain better I am always game to try it out. I don't think I've seen anyone disappointed with it. Plus I've got a 2nd LnL that I picked up as part of a package deal so I can always transfer over previous upgrades and set that up for a different purpose.

Again, thanks for the great write up and the advice. I really appreciate it!

 

[Jarvitron]

I will throw in here that I do have a blue press (550) which is a great entry into Progressive land but it's definitely not as productive as a 650/750/1050/1100/mark 7. But here's some thoughts about buying blue:

Don't buy a Square Deal B. Period. Weird dies, weird all around. Buy a Hornady instead, anything. Get one of those Lee hand presses.

Don't buy a 550 used. The people selling them are always asking too much for them.

If I found a sufficiently good deal on a 650/1050 the older priming system (Say ~$900 with a casefeeder and extras for the 650 or ~$1500 for a 1050) would not scare me off, in fact aside from the "annoyance" of missed primers going into an overflow bin if I run an empty station through the press, I have heard the older priming system is safer and easier to adjust.

I have stared plenty of times at older 1050s with ancient gear motor automation (Ponsness Warren or other 80s kits) or even more fun, hydraulic automation, and I don't think they make sense money wise unless they're a freebie with a press. I'm sure they work and if I inhereited one I'd try to get it going but if I'm setting up new I want the one with force sensing and tons of safety checks.

If you really wanna do automation and volume, look at more commercial options like Camdex and Rollsizer. I'd love a Camdex personally, I think it's an incredibly robust system.

 

[STFU]

I will throw in here that I do have a blue press (550) which is a great entry into Progressive land but it's definitely not as productive as a 650/750/1050/1100/mark 7. But here's some thoughts about buying blue:

Don't buy a Square Deal B. Period. Weird dies, weird all around. Buy a Hornady instead, anything. Get one of those Lee hand presses.

Don't buy a 550 used. The people selling them are always asking too much for them.

If I found a sufficiently good deal on a 650/1050 the older priming system (Say ~$900 with a casefeeder and extras for the 650 or ~$1500 for a 1050) would not scare me off, in fact aside from the "annoyance" of missed primers going into an overflow bin if I run an empty station through the press, I have heard the older priming system is safer and easier to adjust.

I have stared plenty of times at older 1050s with ancient gear motor automation (Ponsness Warren or other 80s kits) or even more fun, hydraulic automation, and I don't think they make sense money wise unless they're a freebie with a press. I'm sure they work and if I inhereited one I'd try to get it going but if I'm setting up new I want the one with force sensing and tons of safety checks.

If you really wanna do automation and volume, look at more commercial options like Camdex and Rollsizer. I'd love a Camdex personally, I think it's an incredibly robust system.

Great advice all the way around!