Crazy ER Stories: Caliber Effectiveness on the Street

[Aaron1776]

That sir is what I call a quality post. If those whiney noobs would post stuff like this we would never have a "why do I need 50 posts to get to the classifieds" thread again. Nice write up.

Thanks!! I wasn't sure if you guys would be interested in it or not. Didn't want to hit you with "more of the same", but I thought I'd give it a shot....

Pun intended lol...

..sry I saw it as I was typing it and I had to go for the really bad joke.

 

[Light]

Saw a great video by an ER doctor, maybe on here. He stated that only 1 out of 7 shot with a handgun die. Basically trauma management and stopping the bleeding (causing the trauma) being the important thing to save a patient.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA[/ame]

 

[Never A Victim]

Just more reason I carry a .45 for my EDC. When I hit ya, game over.!

I don't even know how to respond to this without using the words "internet commando" or calling you by the name "Mack."

 

[Never A Victim]

Reference to the Dr's video, he shows a video example of a guy who was shot twice I believe with a .45 and was still walking around...and later survived. Not to discredit anything the OP said, but this doctor deals primarily with gun shot wounds and even trains other doctors on how to deal with them. If I'm not mistaken, his general thought is that handguns are very ineffective at killing people, regardless of caliber.

 

[williamnewman1]

great write up .... really enjoyed it

 

[Tinner666]

I agree with what you said. Sometimes, the wife and/or I will carry the 380 or 22 instead of the nines due to clothing or other issues.

.380 can be accurate past 10 yards, but I've never owned one that had good enough sights for that except for slow fire target shooting. Speed shooting is just pointing, not true aiming for me. Our policy is when either is needed, empty the magazine in 2-3 seconds, reload and continue unless the BG has fallen or turned and run. Quantity over quality is what's going to count if either is needed, along with accuracy to halt an attack.
Don't use either by firing a shot in self defense, then pausing and checking for effect. Odds are, there won't be much if any.

Of course, this could hold true for any handgun round used for self defense.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Acronym for the OP:

"SOCMOB"

Standing On Corner Minding Own Business....when someone walked up and jumped me

SOCMOB...when someone drove by and shot me

SOCMOB...etc etc

 

[Hohn]

The OP validated the FBI's emphasis on PENETRATION over expansion.

I would say that .380 is capable of being effective, but it would need to be FMJ in addition to being well-aimed.

Personally, I consider even the 9mm borderline so I bought a .40


Expansion is important IF the minimum penetration has been achieved. But choosing an expansion that compromises penetration is a bad call, imo.

Recall that other thread where the FBI slides show the kid that took like 10 .40 Gold Dots to the body as was still going? None of those were deep penetrators-- several penetrated less than an inch.

.22s are so deadly largely because they expand very little and hence, penetrate deeply, even with a hp round.

FMJ may not leave much of a wound channel, but sufficient penetration is all but assured.

 

[pleiades]

Aaron, I'm wondering if you have taken note of the caliber and the type of ammo used. Such as if the FMJ .380 has had a different affect than a JHP .380. I'm interested in that caliber because I have family members who carry it. I carry a .45

I'm also considering what you said about a .22.... very interesting.... it sure is easy to shoot and Ruger now has a LCR 22 mag

thanks!

 

[CitiusFortius]

A .22 is better than no gun at all if you're not willing to use a larger caliber. And you are right about the difference between petty robbers and home invaders. However, just don't kid yourself and bet on all of them running for it. People who home invade & other psychos and druggies aren't above armed robbery. Train for those face shots!!!

The other thing to consider is that bullets do not discriminate targets. There's ample evidence that in live fire situations accuracy drops dramatically.

Again, that's why I'd prefer to have more rounds. Also though, should I miss, and God forbid hit an innocent, I like the idea that it might not be fatal.

Life is a gamble, and I'm an odds man. Sure, there's always the remote possibility that the proverbial meth head will come charging at me, but it's more likely that it'll just be some hoodlum.

I don't begrudge those that carry a full size 1911, just not for me. Great conversation!!!

 

[waltherppk]

I believe everything I see in the movies. .45s make people go flying and James Bond can kill a buffalo sized bad guy with one .380 shot. It has to be realistic...

 

[jgreiner]

My minimum caliber for main carry is 9mm with hot defensive loads. But usually I am either carrying .357 magnum, or .45 acp now.

I may get a little .22 magnum derringer as a pocket back up.

 

[jgreiner]

Awesome info! I'm going to go contrary here, but I carry my .22 for round count. I'd rather have 11 rounds of 22 than 6 rds of 9.

Truthfully, any 9mm with 10 rounds would be so big Id probably leave it at home most trips. Most self defense cases are robberies, and most robbers are cowards who will flee at the sight of any gun.

I got something with much more punch in the bed stand as i consider home invaders to be a different breed.

hmmmm....my 9mm holds 18 rounds.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You seem to be focusing on what I didn't say rather than what I did say. I said beyond ten yards you lose the accuracy. I then went on to clarify that at 15-20 yards it opens up in comparison to 9mm and .45. I'll take it one step further now and add "especially at 15-20 yards with most .380s sold for CC these days." I'm sure you could find a tricked out .380 somewhere shooting hot ammo, but at that point why aren't you carrying a 9mm? I shot .380s for 6 years next to 9mms and .45 and they never performed like the 9mm. It's hard to look at a man who is nailing the target at 20 yards with a .45 & 9mm but is doing worse with a .380, with far less recoil and the same trigger type, and say it's his fault or the gun's fault. Note I said worse, not "missing". A competent shooter can still hit the torso at that range. The groupings just aren't as good and not tight enough for my personal standards in what I look for in a gun used for killing/stopping a BG. Rounds that do meet those standards I call "tactical".

Honestly the .380 and .38spl aren't "pretty similar" at all outside of bullet speed. The .380 is what? 95grains? The .38spl is what? 130? 158? That's a 37%-66% difference in size. Size matters in retaining momentum & accuracy. Momentum is the key to penetration and sometimes centimeters make the difference in bullet placement. The .380 just plain didn't perform to the level I wanted it to in comparison.

For further evidence of how they aren't similar, you need to look up the Hatcher Value of the two rounds.
(For those of you who are unaware, the Hacther value was a formula created by General Julian Hatcher, who was also a noted forensic pathologist among other things, to calculate the theoretical stopping power of a handgun round. It has withstood the test of time as being a valid measurement of odds. Basically, the higher the value, the better your odds of knocking a man down. There is a law of diminishing returns beyond 55)

The 9mm is 39.9
The 38 special is 39.7
The .380 is a mere 18.3. (Less than half the 9mm or .38)
The .32 is 11.8 (Which one is the .380 closer to? a .32 or .38spl?)

What matters when you're talking about calibers in general are averages and odds. A .380 stops a guy with one shot approx 6 out of 20 times. (About the same chance of a .32 stopping someone, probably a little more.) A 38spl or 9mm bumps it up to 1 out of 2.....33% vs 50% seems like a giant gap to me.

For something that's "almost a 9mm", that's really anemic.

Can you find instances of a .380 punching in one side and out the other instantly killing a man? Probably somwhere. Just like you can find instances of a 9mm skipping off a rib and doing next to nothing. But in general a .380 is a far cry from a 9mm.....and both get smoked by the .45 in both anecdotal evidence and large studies.

All I am saying is that my anecdotal experiences in the ER have concurred with the statistical data and the Hatcher Formula, thus why I wrote them down.

But as I said before, a .380 is better than no gun at all, so if you wanna bet your life on it, I've got no call to stop you. Just please train with it like James Bond so you'll survive your gunfight by shooting him the face. I'd like to continue debating you on these forums.

In the .38 vs .380 debate, let me ask you a few things:

Which has a higher initial velocity? Which has a higher velocity at 10y? 20y?

Most .380s on the market right now are using about a 3.75" barrel.

How does that compare to the common 2"-2.25" snub nosed revolver that's the typical .38 carry gun these days?

For your accuracy debate:
How does velocity affect accuracy in a handgun? We aren't talking distances were wind matters much...so how much effect does it really have? Should sub-sonic .22s be less accurate than standard pressure .22s? Should a .357 magnum have tighter groups with magnum rounds over +P rounds over standard pressure .38s? Why?

Point of impact may vary, but why would group sizes open up?

I'm off to the prosecutor to screen a case, look forward to your answers later today.

 

[thoroughbred]

Ive got a question for the OP (nice post by the way) ...anyway have you ever seen a wound from a 10mm? Im just curious what kind of performance in real life shootings that would have. You can watch ballistic testing in gelatin all day, but its just not the same. Not that I carry one or anything just curious for use while on a big game hunting trip as a last ditch effort against a monster grizzly charging me...I just rather have the ammo capacity over some big revolver that is hard to shoot.

 

[in625shooter]

In conclusion, I would take two things away from this. First, carry the biggest round out of the biggest gun you can handle, and try not to use less than a .38 special/9mm. Humans are actually pretty hard to bring down. Second, don’t be afraid to take a bullet resisting criminals. Chances are, even if he gets the drop on you, he won’t hit you. If you are hit, you have an excellent chance of survival. If you die, it’s better than dying like a sheep after watching them rape and murder your family. Draw your weapon and take them down!
What do you consider to be your minimum caliber?

Aaron welcome and thanks for your information. I will never say I know or have seen it all but have been involved in LE for 26 years so I've seen a lot. and a lot of folks would be amazed by the amount of people in the Federal Prisons across the country that are walking around with 38,9mm,40 S&W, 5.56mm even 12 ga OO buck in them and they are still walking around so while you neve can have to big of a gun it's not a gaurentee either. Sometimes it seems like nothing will kill them. Also I am a Lead Firearms Trainer on the FED's side and we were made aware of this a few years ago but but of a different source but some here might find it interesting as well on what your up against in the thug mentality.

News from The Force Science Research Center

And one I almost forgot

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Again welcome and thanks for your input

 

[Bill of Rights]

Ive got a question for the OP (nice post by the way) ...anyway have you ever seen a wound from a 10mm? Im just curious what kind of performance in real life shootings that would have. You can watch ballistic testing in gelatin all day, but its just not the same. Not that I carry one or anything just curious for use while on a big game hunting trip as a last ditch effort against a monster grizzly charging me...I just rather have the ammo capacity over some big revolver that is hard to shoot.

ETA: Full disclosure: I don't own and have never fired the 10mm. I also cast no aspersions on anyone, I just thought the pic was funny in context.

Also, the OP has been repped.
Blessings,
Bill

 

[Darral27]

Good read. Thanks for the info. I have never carried a .380 but had thought about it for my wife. I will go ahead and skip that. A nice single stack 9mm would work just as well if she ever gets her permit. I used to carry a 9mm but have recently switched to 10mm as my EDC. I am a big guy so I can still conceal a G20. The G20 holding 15rds is also a bonus. 2 less shots than my 9mm but I would think much more damaging shots. I would also be interested in hearing some stories about 10mm for SD if anybody has heard anything.

 

[rkwhyte2]

My minimum caliber for main carry is 9mm with hot defensive loads. But usually I am either carrying .357 magnum, or .45 acp now.

I may be a little .22 magnum derringer as a pocket back up.

+1...I really like my .357mag I traded my .45 for it.

 

[jsharmon7]

Read this earlier and then saw this story:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130130/NEWS02/130130001?odyssey=obinsite&nclick_check=1