Could you have stopped the evil?

[Ziggidy]

I'm a lot more jaded in my World view. Maybe I've grown that way over my years on the street. Even with MANY pistol carriers, I just don't think you will see more than one engaging him/her...maybe not even one. Even with the huge number of LTCH holders in Indiana, only a small percentage train with them. Of those that train, only a small percentage train for combat shooting/fighting under stress. Of those who do ALL of that, some STILL cannot get themselves to engage a lethal threat when required. To leave their cover and place themselves into direct harm to engage a target with the likelihood of taking hits yourself. I'm a severe skeptic I suppose.

I truly believe I could rise to the occasion; however I do have a concern. MY concern is exactly what you speak up, except it is with others, including the police. Once you pull out your weapon to defend, anyone may see you as a threat at which point try to take you out. Friendly fire happens and in a critical situation with untrained individuals, it would cause me to fear more. That is my fear. Fear more from the responders rather than from the threat.

How do we identify ourselves and others as being the good guys, when chaos is all around?

 

[rhino]

I'm a lot more jaded in my World view. Maybe I've grown that way over my years on the street. Even with MANY pistol carriers, I just don't think you will see more than one engaging him/her...maybe not even one. Even with the huge number of LTCH holders in Indiana, only a small percentage train with them. Of those that train, only a small percentage train for combat shooting/fighting under stress. Of those who do ALL of that, some STILL cannot get themselves to engage a lethal threat when required. To leave their cover and place themselves into direct harm to engage a target with the likelihood of taking hits yourself. I'm a severe skeptic I suppose.

You're probably right, especially if we include people who hesitate and dither either because they are overwhelmed or otherwise indecisive. The time it takes to assess, make a plan, decide to act, and act could take too long to be of much use. That's part of life. Also, after the example of the resource officer at the school in Florida a few years ago chose not to act, I don't think it's reasonable to expect many private citizens to have the ability, means, opportunity, gumption, and decisiveness all in the compressed time frame to take action.

That of course leads us to topics like this. We all need to consider what we can do, what we're willing to do, and how far we're willing to go under such dire circumstances. Obviously no one knows with certainty how they will respond in the absence of past experience in similar situations, but the more consideration and decision-making we can do ahead of the time when it's needed, the better. If nothing else, it may allow for a mental checkbox list to go through to help guide a rapid decision and action.

 

[semperfi211]

Could I have stopped it? I don't know. I practice with my carry gun my Glock22 at 25 yards. I have never attempted a 50 yard shot with it. If there wasn't anyone behind him that may be hit I have 16 shots to spray and pray so that's probably what I would do. I am not sure how much bullet drop there would be going from 25 to 50 yards. I think after completing this post I will go out in the back yard and see.

 

[Alpo]

Could I have stopped it? I don't know. I practice with my carry gun my Glock22 at 25 yards. I have never attempted a 50 yard shot with it. If there wasn't anyone behind him that may be hit I have 16 shots to spray and pray so that's probably what I would do. I am not sure how much bullet drop there would be going from 25 to 50 yards. I think after completing this post I will go out in the back yard and see.

If you practice at 25, I suspect you are going to be good to go at 50. Maybe 2" lower.

 

[indykid]

One good point that was made earlier, what if you are a good guy with a gun and return fire on the actual shooter, but the police don't know you are the good guy?

So what is a good guy with a gun supposed to do that would truly help put a stop to the killing and not result in the good guy being taken down by a law enforcement person who didn't know you were the "good guy" and not a second shooter?

 

[churchmouse]

If you practice at 25, I suspect you are going to be good to go at 50. Maybe 2" lower.

When my boys started training with any seriousness I had them start at 30 yards. They moaned and groaned about it but after a time they started getting proficient with the distance. We brought it back to 25 and they were killing it (so to speak) and at 7 yards they were point shooting full size torso. At one point they could beat the steel at 100 pretty well off hand. Target ammo is pretty sketchy at anything past 50.

 

[Sylvain]

One good point that was made earlier, what if you are a good guy with a gun and return fire on the actual shooter, but the police don't know you are the good guy?

So what is a good guy with a gun supposed to do that would truly help put a stop to the killing and not result in the good guy being taken down by a law enforcement person who didn't know you were the "good guy" and not a second shooter?

By the time the cops show up you have plenty of time to put your gun away, unless you're in a firefight lasting 15 minutes.

Don't be holding a gun, or anything else in your hands when they show up, you will have plenty of time to explain to them than you're not the mass murderer freak when you're in custody.

 

[Yup!]

One good point that was made earlier, what if you are a good guy with a gun and return fire on the actual shooter, but the police don't know you are the good guy?

So what is a good guy with a gun supposed to do that would truly help put a stop to the killing and not result in the good guy being taken down by a law enforcement person who didn't know you were the "good guy" and not a second shooter?

Isn't this why we all ordered those CCW Badges?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Do officers use the combat breathing thing under stress? Is it recommended for us citizen LTCH holders?

I do and I recommend it to anyone. I've mentioned it to newer officers for pursuits. Once you've been doing it awhile, like anything else, you tend to get accustomed to it and don't get the racing pulse, increased respirations, etc. While you're acclimating the breathing is great.

If you every witnessed BBI shoot on the move he is like a deadly ballerina!

Uhh...thanks? I don't wear my tutu for just anyone and would appreciate those pics stay private...

It’s kinda strange to be able to hear your radio or the buffer cycling as clear as day and not hear the muzzle blast?

Same. I don't know why but I could hear the "sproing" just fine but the report of the rifle itself was incredibly muted. I knew officers were yelling, but I couldn't tell what.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Could I have stopped it? I don't know. I practice with my carry gun my Glock22 at 25 yards. I have never attempted a 50 yard shot with it. If there wasn't anyone behind him that may be hit I have 16 shots to spray and pray so that's probably what I would do. I am not sure how much bullet drop there would be going from 25 to 50 yards. I think after completing this post I will go out in the back yard and see.

Negligible. I've shot out to 150y on walk back drills and even at that distance holding at the "neck" was on the torso. That's the furthest I've ever shot a .40, and that was a P226 with 180gr. I *think* it was Speer Lawman.

.38 snubbies can get some real bullet drop with standard pressure .38s. 100y steel and you've got to hold over the target's head. The proper way to do this on a moving target (besides to put your snubby away and get a rifle) is to aim as normal then drop the rear sight. Elevating the front sight works on a stationary target but on something that might move you've obstructed your target with the barrel and don't know where it is or what you're doing now.

 

[24Carat]

The last few days definitely gives one pause. I have decided to retire the LCRx from a summer primary and the occasional back up, to a vehicle gun.

The guide rod laser equipped Glock 17 carrying 24 +1 and 3 additional 19 round mags (all bonded +P} from my armored truck days goes to primary now and the Glock 27 with G-23 mags goes to backup.

A hardy two thumbs up to experiencing Adrenalin floods. Tunnel Vision and Auditory muting aren't something to experience for the first time in a confrontation. An existential realization that I have lived a good life takes me to a comfortable place also. SA on high and Rock On !!!

 

[Trapper Jim]

I believe Joe Competitor might fare better than Joe Practice in shutting the shooter down.

 

[VUPDblue]

That’s bringing up a whole other debate right there.

 

[bwframe]

I believe Joe Competitor might fare better than Joe Practice in shutting the shooter down.

Agreed. However, in my experience, the amount of competitors that actually carry for self defense is pretty abysmal.

What is the likelihood that Joe competitor will even have a gun, much less one that could make a 50 yard shot or contain enough rounds to even consider taking on a rifle toting terrorist?

 

[rhino]

Agreed. However, in my experience, the amount of competitors that actually carry for self defense is pretty abysmal.

What is the likelihood that Joe competitor will even have a gun, much less one that could make a 50 yard shot or contain enough rounds to even consider taking on a rifle toting terrorist?

My experience supports that. In addition, a significant number of competitors who do carry occasionally just drop a j-frame in their pocket. They can shoot it just fine, but some have never tried much less actually practiced drawing from their pocket.

Were you with us the day I encouraged some of the "younger" guys (about 10 years ago) to open carry with us at lunch after the USPSA match at Riley? All three of them wore their competition belt rigs with their guns, but the guns were unloaded with no magazine and none of the three had a single loaded magazine on their person. The concept of carrying a gun outside of a competition was not in their consciousness.

 

[actaeon277]

A gun with no magazine.



Lord, make me fast and accurate
let my aim be true and my hand faster than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes, and those that wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let NOT my last thought be, if I only had a gun,
and lord if today is truly the day that you call me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass…

 

[nakinate]

Agreed. However, in my experience, the amount of competitors that actually carry for self defense is pretty abysmal.

What is the likelihood that Joe competitor will even have a gun, much less one that could make a 50 yard shot or contain enough rounds to even consider taking on a rifle toting terrorist?

I compete with my carry pistol. I’ve actually been running matches from AIWB recently too. I’m nowhere near as skilled as the serious USPSA shooters but I feel that I’ll be adequately equipped and prepared if the time comes. I’m not saying the outcome will necessarily be in my favor, but with 37 rounds and a full-size pistol I’ll give it a shot.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Agreed. However, in my experience, the amount of competitors that actually carry for self defense is pretty abysmal.

What is the likelihood that Joe competitor will even have a gun, much less one that could make a 50 yard shot or contain enough rounds to even consider taking on a rifle toting terrorist?

I see what you mean. However the rate of competitors that carry is much higher in IDPA than others. Perhaps Joe Practice could get a gun off of deceased Joe Carry and throw it to Joe Competitor?

 

[88E30M50]

I've been on a couple Air Force forums with Andy Brown. He was a Technical Sergeant (TSgt) when he left the USAF. He did what he had to do, but that day haunts him. Mellberg should've never made it past the MEPS station.

I’ve read his book. It’s sad that Mellberg was a problem that got passed along to a different command over and over until he blew. Andy Brown took a tough shot from an uncovered position and got the job done. But, he practiced for that situation. He was not a 7 yard paper puncher that got lucky. Instead, he took his job seriously and practiced shots like that.

 

[Vigilant]

I see what you mean. However the rate of competitors that carry is much higher in IDPA than others. Perhaps Joe Practice could get a gun off of deceased Joe Carry and throw it to Joe Competitor?嵐

Who would then be DQ’d for violating a safety rule.