Colin Kaepernick protests the Anthem

[jamil]

NO ONE herein is asking for a federal law to be enacted to make kneeling for the anthem illegal (instead of just vacuous and stupid). You make the same mistake about what are "... your first amendment rights" that many others do. The Constitution may protect your right to say stupid things, dangerous to your financial well-being, from government interference; IT DOES NOT protect you from the consequences of the choices you make

I think we can take that too far. When society gets so polarized that they mob-shame everyone who doens't conform, then we have a defacto tyranny. Rather than mob-shaming, I'd rather leave people to their own morals and I'll worry about mine.

 

[Kutnupe14]

View attachment 59866
Somebody better tell LeSean McCoy about purposefully stretching during the national anthem.

And the guy who took that picture too. OMG, is that someone walking in the background???

 

[bwframe]

Who's gonna kneel at tomorrow's game?

 

[PaulWest]

What if someone turned his back to the flag during a national anthem - and his SOLE reason for doing so was to freely express himself as a way to honor fallen soldiers and military personnel?

What if someone actually burned a flag for the same reason?

Like, what if it was specifically to honor soldiers or America or whatever...

Which would matter more? Honor through freedom of expression or turning his back to the flag? The idol or the right?

 

[actaeon277]

I'm just asking for clarification about what you mean (as in the constitution applies to the government, not the citizens sort of thing...) - and including a couple of follow ups if the answer was yes...sorta loads the post, I suppose.

Earlier in this thread I posted

The players have the "right" to protest. The government should not stop it.
The employer has the "right" to do something, or do nothing about it. The government should not stop it.
The fans have the "right" to go/buy, or not go/not buy anything. The government should not stop it.

 

[Jimb]

I have asked many times to many people where is the oppression occurring. I get no clear answers. I get no real answers actually. Just that it is a movement.
A movement towards what actually. I am serious when I ask. Not being a smart Alec I really want to know.
I grew up at the tail end of real oppression in this country. I remember it very well. I also was among the 1st students in Indy to be exposed to busing.
I really remember that period. I could go on for a while about those times. It was not pretty.

But all of that has melted away. We were on track to get through most of this until about 9 years ago.
What needs to be changed that we as a society can change. Laws make no difference. The lawless or those acting out against them will not conform to societal norms.

I know some of the answers to these issues but I still ask.

The question I have asked myself is..."Do I really understand?" The honest answer is probably not.
My question to you is; were you on the receiving end of all that was not pretty back then.....that has since "melted away"?
Usually as something melts away...it results in a puddle of congealed crap where once was its' base.
Is it possible that it is this puddle of human crap that has lead to some sort of warped justification in electing incompetence to replace the unacceptable?

 

[femurphy77]

I frequent a car forum. They HATE him there.

Not to derail here but being a car guy myself and on several related forums myself I ask; What have I missed? I'd love to have a Tesla!

 

[Kutnupe14]

Not to derail here but being a car guy myself and on several related forums myself I ask; What have I missed? I'd love to have a Tesla!

Have they fixed their battery issues? I love the look of those cars, and the general tech behind them.

 

[KLB]

Not to derail here but being a car guy myself and on several related forums myself I ask; What have I missed? I'd love to have a Tesla!

I wanted an S when they said they would start at $49K. Then when they started delivering it was $80K+. No thanks

 

[jamil]

I wanted an S when they said they would start at $49K. Then when they started delivering it was $80K+. No thanks

Eh, maybe he was banking on more subsidies than he actually got.

 

[KLB]

Eh, maybe he was banking on more subsidies than he actually got.

Beats me. More likely he found enough people to pay that much for all of the cars he could make. I just wasn't one of them.

 

[Woobie]

What if someone turned his back to the flag during a national anthem - and his SOLE reason for doing so was to freely express himself as a way to honor fallen soldiers and military personnel?

What if someone actually burned a flag for the same reason?

Like, what if it was specifically to honor soldiers or America or whatever...

Which would matter more? Honor through freedom of expression or turning his back to the flag? The idol or the right?

No real soldier would ever want to be "honored" that way. Don't be silly.

But if you want to be silly, I'll tell you what: Next time we lose a good Hoosier, you and I will go to the funeral together. You can do whatever nonsense with the flag that comes to your mind, and I will hold a sign that says "I promise he is doing this to honor the fallen."

The flag is not an idol, it is a symbol. Anything done to a symbol is by nature symbolic.

 

[churchmouse]

The question I have asked myself is..."Do I really understand?" The honest answer is probably not.
My question to you is; were you on the receiving end of all that was not pretty back then.....that has since "melted away"?
Usually as something melts away...it results in a puddle of congealed crap where once was its' base.
Is it possible that it is this puddle of human crap that has lead to some sort of warped justification in electing incompetence to replace the unacceptable?

Digging deep into wait you posted I see what you mean.

Understanding. That is a solid question. Kut has tried to put this out there in his own way. I try. I really do.

Of course not. I was on the other side of the fence looking and and trying to understand. I was subjected to my own experiences through this. Beyond that.....no.

Yes, in thinking/pondering this for the last few days we may not yet be far enough removed to have that puddle evaporate.
There are still those that keep the hate alive for personal gain and positions of perceived power and leader ship on all sides of this. There are enough followers to keep the puddle liquid......if that makes any sense at all.

The issues are still not clear enough to me to formulate solid answers. I have skin in this game.

 

[indiucky]

This thread needs more Gale Sayers.....

[video=youtube;OfI_HT39eeM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfI_HT39eeM[/video]

 

[JAL]

Earlier in this thread I posted

The players have the "right" to protest. The government should not stop it.
The employer has the "right" to do something, or do nothing about it. The government should not stop it.
The fans have the "right" to go/buy, or not go/not buy anything. The government should not stop it.

I have many of the same feelings and will add it's my prerogative to express my displeasure with the teams and the NFL regarding their player behavior in NFL/team uniform and while representing them, communicating it directly to them, and why I've chosen to block all NFL programing on my TiVos. The idea being touted by some of the far left that imposing behavior requirements on players when representing their teams and the NFL makes the NFL and its teams "plantations" enslaving players goes beyond the absurdly ludicrous.

The NFL and various teams in the league are losing Public Good Will. It has an intrinsic value. It's the value of the trademarks, corporate name and the public name and trademark recognition they have. When Public Good Will toward a corporation goes down, that corporation loses revenue. NFL Public Good Will had been reduced by the very publicly visible employee behavior. It is part of the function of a free market. Goodell knows this as do the team owners.

John

 

[Liberty1916]

Digging deep into wait you posted I see what you mean.

Understanding. That is a solid question. Kut has tried to put this out there in his own way. I try. I really do.

Of course not. I was on the other side of the fence looking and and trying to understand. I was subjected to my own experiences through this. Beyond that.....no.

Yes, in thinking/pondering this for the last few days we may not yet be far enough removed to have that puddle evaporate.
There are still those that keep the hate alive for personal gain and positions of perceived power and leader ship on all sides of this. There are enough followers to keep the puddle liquid......if that makes any sense at all.

The issues are still not clear enough to me to formulate solid answers. I have skin in this game.

I see two point about this.

1. Understanding seems to be something that only one side is required to make an effort at. I don't hear anyone asking the players if they understand why people might be p****d the flag/country is being disrespected. "Understanding" is a two way street. Until the other side also makes an effort in that direction, nothing will ever change.

2. We have to have a rational basis for understanding. Sometimes (I think most times), the complaints of "racism" or "oppression" aren't even in the world of reality. For instance, years ago when my kids were 6-7 y.o., the school had a trip to the zoo and many parents went along. You know how kids are at that age, excited/crowding etc. and one of the black boys got crowded out from the front of the exhibit window. His mother started yelling "this ain't slavery days" and made sure her kid got to the front. Garbage like that doesn't deserve an effort to understand. She's the one that needs to develop understanding. The problem is, no one is requiring it of her, and in fact that kind of obnoxious behavior is condoned. In a proper world, she would have been asked to leave, but instead everyone else gets lectures about "understanding" her POV while she gets to freely disrupt the event.

Many people see the NFL protests the same way. It's garbage to claim that America as a country is "racist" or "oppresses" anyone.

 

[churchmouse]

I see two point about this.

1. Understanding seems to be something that only one side is required to make an effort at. I don't hear anyone asking the players if they understand why people might be p****d the flag/country is being disrespected. "Understanding" is a two way street. Until the other side also makes an effort in that direction, nothing will ever change.

2. We have to have a rational basis for understanding. Sometimes (I think most times), the complaints of "racism" or "oppression" aren't even in the world of reality. For instance, years ago when my kids were 6-7 y.o., the school had a trip to the zoo and many parents went along. You know how kids are at that age, excited/crowding etc. and one of the black boys got crowded out from the front of the exhibit window. His mother started yelling "this ain't slavery days" and made sure her kid got to the front. Garbage like that doesn't deserve an effort to understand. She's the one that needs to develop understanding. The problem is, no one is requiring it of her, and in fact that kind of obnoxious behavior is condoned. In a proper world, she would have been asked to leave, but instead everyone else gets lectures about "understanding" her POV while she gets to freely disrupt the event.

Many people see the NFL protests the same way. It's garbage to claim that America as a country is "racist" or "oppresses" anyone.

I do believe you have won the internet today.
Bask in your prize as it is fleeting at best.
Someone will come along and take it away with rhetoric and sound bites just to be mean.

I get so much of this. When actually engaging in a discussion as to what where and why all of this is and the facts/figures/reality lean my way it most always drops back to labels and name calling. It is an ingrained response. This is where we need to start. But how. We have enabled this.

 

[Liberty1916]

I do believe you have won the internet today.
Bask in your prize as it is fleeting at best.
Someone will come along and take it away with rhetoric and sound bites just to be mean.

I get so much of this. When actually engaging in a discussion as to what where and why all of this is and the facts/figures/reality lean my way it most always drops back to labels and name calling. It is an ingrained response. This is where we need to start. But how. We have enabled this.

Thanks!

How is a hard question. The problem is, the two sides, (and it's not just black/white but really more left/right or conservative/liberal) approach issues from different poles. One side likes to argue facts, the other side feelings, one side sees opportunities and the other side sees outcomes.

Personally, I think that gulf (puddle as you put it), is too large to overcome. We simply see the world too differently to even have a basis for understanding.

At best I think we can overcome issues on a personal level with people in our circle, but the systemic problems will never be solved. Too many people have a financial or political interest in keeping the fires stoked. Kind of like modern psychology - no one is ever "cured", they're always "recovering", while the psychologist continues to cash the checks. America will never not be a "racist" country as long as someone can keep cashing the checks.

Personally, I think the best way to move on would be for the government to get out of the race business altogether. As Morgan Freeman says "stop talking about it". Stop gathering census data on race, housing data, etc. etc. That will never happen though. America will always be "recovering" from her past, and the political machines will keep cashing the checks.

 

[churchmouse]

Thanks!

How is a hard question. The problem is, the two sides, (and it's not just black/white but really more left/right or conservative/liberal) approach issues from different poles. One side likes to argue facts, the other side feelings, one side sees opportunities and the other side sees outcomes.

Personally, I think that gulf (puddle as you put it), is too large to overcome. We simply see the world too differently to even have a basis for understanding.

At best I think we can overcome issues on a personal level with people in our circle, but the systemic problems will never be solved. Too many people have a financial or political interest in keeping the fires stoked. Kind of like modern psychology - no one is ever "cured", they're always "recovering", while the psychologist continues to cash the checks. America will never not be a "racist" country as long as someone can keep cashing the checks.

Personally, I think the best way to move on would be for the government to get out of the race business altogether. As Morgan Freeman says "stop talking about it". Stop gathering census data on race, housing data, etc. etc. That will never happen though. America will always be "recovering" from her past, and the political machines will keep cashing the checks.

OK....you win tomorrow as well. 2 days to hold the big trophy.

 

[bwframe]

Wonder how long it will take us to get by the tone of devisiveness from the Obama presidency?