Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

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  • 45sRfun

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    Verse 8: “The one who is doing sin from the devil is he, because from the beginning the devil sins. For this the Son of God has been manifested, in order to destroy the works of the devil.”
    Verse 9: “Everyone who has been born from God sin he does not do, because His seed in him remains; and he is not able to sin because from God he has been born.”

    This is probably a much closer translation of the Textus Receptus into English.
    Well I would take "doing sin" and "sin he does not do" and put emphasis on the "do" part as an active, purposeful doing. As we know that nobody is without sin, I think the point of these verses is that Christians do not pursue sin. Interesting I am reading a book of meditations on the Epistles of John right now and recently read this regarding Verse 9: ". . . no one can be a half-Christian, that he should bear the name of Christ and still do the works of the devil."
    --Samuel Heinrich Fröhlich, 1841
     

    DadSmith

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    Well I would take "doing sin" and "sin he does not do" and put emphasis on the "do" part as an active, purposeful doing. As we know that nobody is without sin, I think the point of these verses is that Christians do not pursue sin. Interesting I am reading a book of meditations on the Epistles of John right now and recently read this regarding Verse 9: ". . . no one can be a half-Christian, that he should bear the name of Christ and still do the works of the devil."
    --Samuel Heinrich Fröhlich, 1841
    Also this Scripture.
    Romans 6:1-6 NKJV
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
    [2] Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
    [3] Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
    [4] Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    [5] For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
    [6] knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
     

    Firehawk

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    1 John 3:8-9 NKJV
    He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
    [9] Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

    1 John 3:8-9 KJV
    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    1 John 3:8-9 ESV
    Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
    [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

    1 John 3:8-9 NASB
    the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
    [9] No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God.


    So do you believe this?
    Yes, I believe it. It’s important to look at scripture in the context of the Bible. Or as some teachers say “let scripture interpret scripture”.

    What is sin?
    I like these definitions:

    “If anyone, then, knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin to them” James 4:17

    “Whatever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23

    How many times have I passed a homeless person and a nudge in my spirit says “stop” and I don’t? That is sin.
    How many times have a I thought I should call someone and check on them and encourage them and pray with them but I don’t? That is sin.
    How many times have I realized I should spend more time with my kids and didn’t? That is sin.
    On and on. Does this mean that I am “of the Devil”? I hope not! I think if we are honest with ourselves we can see that our lives are filled with sin. I like the versions that put it this way “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.” Although there may be sin in my life I do not make a “practice” of sinning. In my heart I want to be better and I try to do better. I strive to move closer to Jesus. I think most believers in Jesus would say the same. The difference is those who “practice” sin. They seek out sin and are not convicted of it. I “practice” my faith and moving closer to Jesus and sometimes I falter (sin).
     

    DadSmith

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    Yes, I believe it. It’s important to look at scripture in the context of the Bible. Or as some teachers say “let scripture interpret scripture”.

    What is sin?
    I like these definitions:

    “If anyone, then, knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin to them” James 4:17

    “Whatever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23

    How many times have I passed a homeless person and a nudge in my spirit says “stop” and I don’t? That is sin.
    How many times have a I thought I should call someone and check on them and encourage them and pray with them but I don’t? That is sin.
    How many times have I realized I should spend more time with my kids and didn’t? That is sin.
    On and on. Does this mean that I am “of the Devil”? I hope not! I think if we are honest with ourselves we can see that our lives are filled with sin. I like the versions that put it this way “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.” Although there may be sin in my life I do not make a “practice” of sinning. In my heart I want to better and I try to do better. I strive to move closer to Jesus. I think most believers in Jesus would say the same. The difference is those who “practice” sin. They seek out sin and are not convicted of it. I “practice” my faith and moving closer to Jesus and sometimes I falter (sin).
    It does not mean that sin has been removed. While we are still in these bodies we are tempted, and we still struggle with sin.
    Sin, however, no longer has authority over us. We have the great potential to live obediently by the power, and anointing of the Holy Spirit.
    If we do not walk in faith, however, and if we do not utilize truth, and submit to the leadership of the Holy Spirit there is going to be evidence of that old man still hanging around.
    Although he has been crucified and is dead, in times of disobedience we can resurrect that old man or carnal nature/self, and serve sin again.

    As Wesley put it we need to die to sin, and grow in grace daily.

    I myself had a horrible problem cussing. Couldn't say a sentence without using words not pleasing to God. But after I turned my life over to Jesus of Nazareth and the Holy Spirit came in and helped me to stop. I had a horrible temper, and I am a changed person now because of dying to sin, and growing in grace daily.
    I could go on, and on about the things I used to do, but I believe we all can give that same testimony.
    It wasn't a preacher or friendly Christian that told me you can't do this or that. It was reading, and studying God's word, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
     

    historian

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    It's that time of year again. Halloween. I refuse to celebrate the occult and paganism. Wife thinks it's just harmless fun.

    What's your thoughts?
    We weren't allowed to celebrate Halloween in any way when I was a kid. It sucked. No Halloween parties, no trick or treating, no fun at all.

    We take our kids trick or treating (in our neighborhood, this bussing kids around to the "better" houses is out of control) and we have fun. The kids like dressing up in costumes and going out late at night. Adult parties are fun as well.

    I don't like the people who believe that it should be celebrated from Labor Day to Thanksgiving (I also oppose people who are decorating for Christmas immediately following Halloween). I also think despise the "Halloween all year" people who should be put in an asylum next to the "Christmas all year" people"

    Once it is over, it is on to the greatest of all holidays, Thanksgiving!!!!
     

    foszoe

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    Wow. I see some epic old time foszoe posts coming.....off work this week and some good bible verses to discuss.....plus I have been thinking of a faith and works comparison to faith vs works.....we'll see.
     
    Last edited:

    foszoe

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    Some think they can sin, as long as they ask forgiveness afterwards it's okay.
    Some think you do not sin knowing as a Christian. I'm with this group.
    I believe those above verses along with many others describes where you stand spiritually if you knowingly, and willingly sin.
    The first group is taking transactional salvation to the extreme, but they are half-right
    The second group is half-right, but you can sin unknowingly, depending on how one defines sin.

    The East defines sin according to the greek amartia, missing the mark. You are created in the image of God to grow in his Likeness. If you act contrary to that likeness, you are sinning, whether you know it or not.

    Being raised Wesleyan. A common definition of sin was sin is a willful transgression of a known law of God. I believe Wesley himself is the source, but I haven't verified that.

    So the danger of the second group is a lack of introspection. There is a reliance on God to reveal sin to me, but in an active manner, usually by reading the scripture or hearning a sermon I may come under "conviction".

    Roman Catholics often get accused of belonging to group 1. The transaction is if I go to confession afterwards, its ok.
    Protestants usually are closer to group 2. The transaction is I sin knowingly, I fall. Sometimes referred to as backslide, however if I do confess my sin, I am ok. So in the end state, group 1 and 2 are really the same. Given that the confession is sincere. So 2 halves make a whole!

    However, there are some grey areas that can come into play when salvation is viewed as transactional, which is the predominant view of Roman Catholics and Protestants.

    What if one lies to protect human life? Is that person in the first or second group?

    Yes those are two broad brushes, but the transactional model is a product of the West. It is pretty much the root of the whole faith vs works debate which never took place in the East. In the early Church it was always Faith and Works, but not in the paradigm of the West.There is another way. A view of salvation as relational, the view of the Orthodox Church.

    That doesn't mean the West doesn't value a relationship with Christ, but the relationship doesn't have anything to do with getting "saved" for Protestants or for Catholics. At the most the relationship is secondary to the "transaction". Being saved is the starting point for the relationship, especially for Protestants. For Catholics, if the confession is sincere, then the merits also must add up to pay the debt, here or in purgatory, and then the Catholic is saved.

    Hence why Grace is called "unmerited favor" as a rebuttal to merits. It also why faith vs works became a thing because works earned merits to pay the debt is the Catholic way to salvation. The corruption of the merit system by such things as indulgences for money was a contributing factor to the Reformation.

    For the East, being "saved" is decided at the time of your death depending on your lifelong relationship with Christ. Its faith and works because faith is built by works and works result from faith and both contribute to us growing in the likeness of God. This approach avoids the conflict between the two groups above.
     
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