Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[DadSmith]

Have a Blessed Sunday.

 

[historian]

Y'all just need to join me in Lutheranism! You will be too busy reading tomes written in the 1600s to argue online!

 

[indiucky]

Them: Do you think moving from L.A. to southern Indiana will change you??? I mean you're a famous occultist, goth rocker and arguably the most famous tattoo artist in the world....what can a little town on the river in southern Indiana offer you???

Kat Von D: I don't know...we will see in a couple of years I guess...

two years later:

 

[foszoe]

Y'all just need to join me in Lutheranism! You will be too busy reading tomes written in the 1600s to argue online!

I missed this step in your journey to Orthodoxy.


Congratulations

My current presbyter is a former Lutheran.

 

[historian]

I missed this step in your journey to Orthodoxy.


Congratulations

My current presbyter is a former Lutheran.

Yeah. You were on my short list, but I like not having to drive across the state to get to a church. That and I like hearing the liturgy without having to learn another language.

I'm now on a quest to teach the LCMS how to be Baptist in practice.

 

[2A_Tom]

I'm now on a quest to teach the LCMS how to be Baptist in practice.

?

 

[historian]

?

So the LCMS sucks at everything external to doctrine. They were birthed in Christendom and, therefore, miss many engagement opportunities. Their model is like Field of Dreams, "If you build it, they will come." They shy away from being evangelical and worry about being too legalistic in their preaching. That comes at a heavy price that the younger generations notice, but the older ones don't. There is no reason to be a body when a church exists only to forgive sins. Thus, my quest to make their orthopraxy match their orthodoxy.

 

[foszoe]

So the LCMS sucks at everything external to doctrine. They were birthed in Christendom and, therefore, miss many engagement opportunities. Their model is like Field of Dreams, "If you build it, they will come." They shy away from being evangelical and worry about being too legalistic in their preaching. That comes at a heavy price that the younger generations notice, but the older ones don't. There is no reason to be a body when a church exists only to forgive sins. Thus, my quest to make their orthopraxy match their orthodoxy.

One of the things I find uniting is the use of a lectionary and liturgy. Coming from a Baptist background, what is your experience with those changes that move you from a more individualistic approach to worship to a more communal one? How have they affected your Christian life? What are your impressions?

 

[historian]

One of the things I find uniting is the use of a lectionary and liturgy. Coming from a Baptist background, what is your experience with those changes that move you from a more individualistic approach to worship to a more communal one? How have they affected your Christian life? What are your impressions?

I've always been a sucker for liturgy (I'm still not sold on a lectionary and prefer preaching sequentially through a book). I love reciting a creed every Sunday; that is nice. I also enjoy the communal aspects of the liturgy that we proclaim these things together with the saints. They don't necessarily change my Christian life. I do find myself crossing myself more and saying things in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I like the focus on communion, but the sermons are more like readings. In high school, I read "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." I always wondered what caused the emotional reaction from such a mellow sermon, particularly one that was, by all accounts, simply read off the page. Now I understand why it was such a dramatic departure. Edwards read a good sermon. That is a huge difference, and I would like more preaching, as I feel the church could use instruction and application, not just Law/Gospel, emphasizing the latter.

 

[foszoe]

I've always been a sucker for liturgy (I'm still not sold on a lectionary and prefer preaching sequentially through a book). I love reciting a creed every Sunday; that is nice. I also enjoy the communal aspects of the liturgy that we proclaim these things together with the saints. They don't necessarily change my Christian life. I do find myself crossing myself more and saying things in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I like the focus on communion, but the sermons are more like readings. In high school, I read "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." I always wondered what caused the emotional reaction from such a mellow sermon, particularly one that was, by all accounts, simply read off the page. Now I understand why it was such a dramatic departure. Edwards read a good sermon. That is a huge difference, and I would like more preaching, as I feel the church could use instruction and application, not just Law/Gospel, emphasizing the latter.

Maybe you already do this. I think the sequentially through a book is for Bible Study class or possibly Sunday School. I prefer Bible class.

I realize its a personal thing. After a few years of a lectionary and liturgy. There comes an indescribable feeling of connectedness that is to those that have gone on in the faith before you. When you hear old timers describing the days/weeks/seasons according to the Church Calendar vs Month/Day, it is an awesome experience.

Today is my 13th wedding anniversary and I know it is on St Phillip's day. It is the last day before the Nativity fast begins and thus the last day you can get married until after the Nativity season. That makes the dinner especially nice because we won't eat anything that nice until Christmas. Well we do have Thanksgiving dinner but we try to eliminate the 5 days of leftovers and do Thanksgiving justice without the extra.

 

[historian]

. Well we do have Thanksgiving dinner but we try to eliminate the 5 days of leftovers and do Thanksgiving justice without the extra.

I always knew you were a Commie

It is nice being connected. That is great. I also really enjoy confession and absolution. The fact that I don't have to worry about how I feel, because God does that to me is really great.

 

[historian]

Also, Happy Anniversary!

 

[foszoe]

Blessed Nativity/Advent Fast/season to all. May you find the Joy of Salvation this season.

 

[HoughMade]

Went with a group of friends from church to see "Journey To Bethlehem" last night.

I enjoyed it. It's a musical and I like musicals. I'm a fan of the underlying story, but get your account from the Word and enjoy this for what it is- inspired by true events, but not an accurate account of them.



No spoilers, but I am hoping that before I die, some depiction of the birth of Christ takes a swing at getting the wise men close to matching the Bible. There is a lot of latitude there as not much is known, but even given that, film makers don't seem interested. The single biblical account of the Magi in Matthew 2 simply presents an event at an unspecified point after Christ's birth in which an unnumbered party of unnamed "wise men" visits him in a house, not a stable. The text specifies no interval between the birth and the visit, but tradition claims between 12 days and 2 years after Christ’s birth. It is impossible to tell. But clearly not at the stable (my parents always set up the stable near the fireplace and the wise men across the room on the TV to drive the point home). As nutty as he is, maybe we need Mel Gibson to make a Nativity movie with original languages and everything....but it wouldn't be a musical.

 

[DadSmith]

ChristmasTown at the Creation Museum

Tour the dazzling garden of lights, reflect on the true meaning of the season, enjoy a special holiday dinner, and do some shopping during our annual ChristmasTown experience.

creationmuseum.org

If you all get a chance to come visit this event do so after sunset +30 minutes. It is beautiful.

 

[foszoe]

I've heard that for the first time recently and hope to learn more in the near future.

I edited and formatted the following for you from this website. It is from an article written in 1989. If you have any more specific questions let me know. some of my other responses touched on this subject and were probably drawn from memory of readihg this article. I didn't want you to think I had forgotten your question.

http://ww1.antiochian.org/Orthodox_Church_Who_What_Where_Why/Who_Is_The_New_Israel.htm

Those who demand unconditional support for Israel consider the modern Jewish State a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. They are heavily influenced by dispensationalism, a method of Bible interpretation which became popular through the writings of John Nelson Darby (died 1882). Darby, a one time cleric of the Church of England, joined the Plymouth Brethren in 1831 and developed a complicated system of Biblical interpretation that divides God’s saving action into individual eras or dispensations. This scheme influenced thousands of American Protestants through the Niagara Bible Conference of 1895 and the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible by Cyrus Ingerson Scofield the next year.

Dispensationalism makes a strong distinction between the promises made to the Jews before Christ and the reality of the Church after Pentecost. Thus dispensationalists teach that God’s promises to the Jews were not fulfilled through the Church but remained unfulfilled during the Church age. They consider the Church a new and separate creation by God with its own separate agenda, not the heir to the promises made by God to ancient Israel. Therefore, it is natural that the dispensationalists should see the founding of the modern state of Israel as a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

Dispensationalists interpret the words, phrases, and sentences of the Bible in a very literalistic manner. Thus they reject or fail to see the importance of an ancient and almost universal principle of Biblical interpretation known as typology. Typology is the method of Biblical understanding which seeks the spiritual meaning of the historical events described in the Old Testament.

Fundamental to the typological method of Biblical interpretation as practiced by the early and later Fathers is the belief that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment and completion of the Law and the Prophets of the Old Testament. For example, the near sacrifice of Isaac points towards the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. The ark that saved Noah and his family from the Flood is a type of the Church which saves the faithful from sin and death. The burning bush is seen as a type of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who bore God in the flesh, yet was not consumed by the presence of the divinity within her womb.

The typological method is not just the invention of the Fathers, but is based firmly on the New Testament. Our Lord Himself used the example of Jonah as a type of the three days that He would spend in the tomb (Matthew 12:40). He also compared the lifting up of the serpent by Moses to his own ascent of the cross (John 3:14). Saint Paul considered the passing through the Red Sea as a type for baptism (I Corinthians 10:1-2). Saint Peter even uses the term “antitype” to compare the ark with baptism (I Peter 3:20-21). Thus the typological method of interpretation is firmly grounded in the Holy Scriptures.

According to the typological method, God’s promises to Abraham and his descendents were fulfilled through Christ and His Church. One Orthodox scholar has written: “In Christ, then, the covenant with Israel was fulfilled, transformed, and transcended. After the
coming of the Messiah—the Incarnation of God the Son—only those who are ‘built into Christ’ are counted among the people of God. In Christ, the old Israel is superseded by the Christian Church, the new Israel, the body of Christ; the old covenant is completed in the new covenant in and through Jesus Christ” (George Cronk, The Message of the Bible; St. Vladimir Seminary Press; 1982, p. 80).

This interpretation of the covenant with Abraham and his descendents as fulfilled through Christ and His Church is firmly grounded in the witness of the New Testament. In the parable of the Vineyard Owner, our Lord uses the unfaithful tenants of a vineyard to illustrate this point. The owner, representing God, sent his servants, representing the prophets, and finally his son and heir, representing Christ, to collect his rent. The tenants, who represent the Jews, ignored the request for the rent and killed both the servants and the son of the owner of the vineyard. At the end of the parable our Lord said, “Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to others” (Mark 12:1-9). In other words, those who faithfully believe in Him will inherit the status that Israel had before it rejected the Messiah.


Saint Paul wrote, “Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham . . . if you are Christ’s then you are of Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:7-9). Indeed, Saint Paul called the body of believers “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16). Saint Peter illustrated this point by applying terms used to describe Israel in the Old Testament when he wrote,
“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people” (I Peter 2:9).

Thus, according to the New Testament, the standard against which all doctrine and Biblical interpretations must be tested, God’s covenant with Abraham and his descendents has been fulfilled through Christ and His followers, not through a secular state, for
Christ said, “My Kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

It is true that there are some Old Testament prophecies that speak of a restoration of Israel following the destruction of Israel by Assyria and of Judah by Babylon. For example, Isaiah wrote, “It shall come to pass that the Lord shall set His hand again the
second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left” (Isaiah 11:11). Jeremiah prophesied, “For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers” (Jeremiah 16:15). Micah said, “I will surely gather the remnant of Israel” (Micah 12:12).

Indeed, God did restore Israel. The book of Ezra tells how Cyrus, the King of Persia who had conquered Babylon, allowed the Jews to
return from exile and to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. Significantly the beginning of Ezra states that the events recorded are in fulfillment of the prophecy of Jeremiah (Ezra 1:1). Thus the Old Testament prophecies cited in support of the modern state of Israel were fulfilled long ago when the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity.

 

[foszoe]

“Because I love God, I do all these things”

Vs

“I do all these things, therefore I love God”

I believe I know what you are getting at and understand the sentiment. It's kind of looking at two paths to the same destination differently.

I would personally tweak it though into one path or sentence, loosely stated.

I WANT to love God so I TRY to do all these things with God who helps me do all these things because He loves me.

More succintly, Both/And instead of Either/Or.

I could even put it into one word.

Synergy.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

I believe I know what you are getting at and understand the sentiment. It's kind of looking at two paths to the same destination differently.

I would personally tweak it though into one path or sentence, loosely stated.

I WANT to love God so I TRY to do all these things with God who helps me do all these things because He loves me.

More succintly, Both/And instead of Either/Or.

I could even put it into one word.

Synergy.

I don’t disagree. Practically speaking they should look relatively similar in the real world, but I think intent matters.


1 Corinthians 13:1-3

Problem isn’t really the right word here, but I’m not smart enough to come up with something else. Stumblingblock maybe?

The problem with strict traditional orthodoxy is that humans have a bent towards replacing actual righteousness with the rituals and traditions themselves (hence the messianic Jew comment, I know not a perfect analogy). Same thing that Jesus dealt with with the Pharisees. Outwardly righteous and as “orthodox” as humanly possible, but inwardly their hearts were black.

In Baptist terms, “Because I go to church every Sunday and wear a suit and my wife and daughters only wear dresses and we only sing hymns and we only use the KJV, therefore we are righteous.”

Of course the opposite is also true, modern Christian churches that focus solely on grace and love and don’t actually do anything about it and live their lives like every other person on earth.

“I love God”

“Oh really? How do you live like Christ?”

“Well, we still get drunk and party every weekend. And our sons cuss like sailors. And our wives and daughters barely cover themselves with clothes. And we have no standard for music or movies. But we love God in our hearts!!”

Have to have a balance.

Rituals and traditions don’t replace an actual loving relationship with the Father.

A loving relationship that doesn’t actually play out in your life and move you to do things is also missing the mark.

 

[2A_Tom]

I WANT to love God so I TRY to do all these things with God who helps me do all these things because He loves me.

The question is,

Do you do this inorder to obtain favor and eternal life? (Works salvation)

Or.

Do you do the works out of gratitude for the Salvation he has freely given. (Faith)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man shoiuld boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If one works to attain salvation, they will stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment, after the melinia, at the end of time, when the dead shall be raised.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If one trusts Jesus Christ for full salvation, he will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, in Heaven, during the tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

All preceding Scripture shared via Bible KJV

Build on the foundation and you will receive rewards.

Work without the foundation and you will receive Hell fire.

 

[HoughMade]

ChristmasTown at the Creation Museum

Tour the dazzling garden of lights, reflect on the true meaning of the season, enjoy a special holiday dinner, and do some shopping during our annual ChristmasTown experience.

creationmuseum.org

If you all get a chance to come visit this event do so after sunset +30 minutes. It is beautiful.

It's great!

We went a couple of times. My son worked 2 summers at the Creation Museum and then got his first full-time job after college there....until the pandemic.