CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[BehindBlueI's]

You asked me, I told you. There are plenty of sources online and in print to lay out the various scholarly arguments both ways if you care to dig deeper. Many folks are better suited for the debate than me.

 

[ATM]

You asked me, I told you. There are plenty of sources online and in print to lay out the various scholarly arguments both ways if you care to dig deeper. Many folks are better suited for the debate than me.

It's not a debate. I truly wonder how you reconcile your belief at odds with what Jesus was actually claimed to have said and the reactions of those who heard.

If you don't believe He said some of those things, that's fine, but why then do you believe He said all the other things by which you still consider Him to be a prophet?

Not doctrine, reason. I believe He precluded that very notion (that He was just a prophet like the others) for a reason.

I'm being polite and genuinely curious if you care to continue. I said I considered it a rather difficult task, so please, take your time if you choose to expend any at all.

 

[hog slayer]

It's not a debate. I truly wonder how you reconcile your belief at odds with what Jesus was actually claimed to have said and the reactions of those who heard.

If you don't believe He said some of those things, that's fine, but why then do you believe He said all the other things by which you still consider Him to be a prophet?

Not doctrine, reason. I believe He precluded that very notion (that He was just a prophet like the others) for a reason.

I'm being polite and genuinely curious if you care to continue. I said I considered it a rather difficult task, so please, take your time if you choose to expend any at all.

And I'll remain silent and stay out of it so as not to create an uncomfortable situation

 

[ATM]

And I'll remain silent and stay out of it so as not to create an uncomfortable situation

I am never uncomfortable.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm being polite and genuinely curious if you care to continue. I said I considered it a rather difficult task, so please, take your time if you choose to expend any at all.

I won't expend the time. I appreciate your curiosity, but I'd rather refer you to other resources to satisfy them if what I've already said leaves you unsatisfied.

I still view religion as a fairly personal thing, and believe it or not I find it uncomfortable to discuss in public, and only slightly less so online. I have no desire to convince you, or anyone else, that my belief is the literal truth and that you should abandon your faith for mine. I engage as much as I do not to convince anyone I'm right and they are wrong, but to attempt to bridge some of the "us vs them" mentalities that foster fear, disrespect, etc. When I'm in the ME, I do the same but in reverse. There are a lot of misunderstandings and incorrect beliefs about "them" on both sides. In short, I don't care if you think I'm wrong in my belief, or illogical, or unsupported, etc. What I do care is that you realize I (and the vast vast majority of Muslims) are not your enemy, not some monolithic "they" to be feared, etc.

 

[ATM]

I won't expend the time. I appreciate your curiosity, but I'd rather refer you to other resources to satisfy them if what I've already said leaves you unsatisfied.

I still view religion as a fairly personal thing, and believe it or not I find it uncomfortable to discuss in public, and only slightly less so online. I have no desire to convince you, or anyone else, that my belief is the literal truth and that you should abandon your faith for mine. I engage as much as I do not to convince anyone I'm right and they are wrong, but to attempt to bridge some of the "us vs them" mentalities that foster fear, disrespect, etc. When I'm in the ME, I do the same but in reverse. There are a lot of misunderstandings and incorrect beliefs about "them" on both sides. In short, I don't care if you think I'm wrong in my belief, or illogical, or unsupported, etc. What I do care is that you realize I (and the vast vast majority of Muslims) are not your enemy, not some monolithic "they" to be feared, etc.

I'm more interested in you than Islam. I wanted your personal perspective on one point that you brought up which remains unaddressed in everything else you've said.

I don't even know if you've ever really considered it an important detail to reconcile, but I would consider it daunting. Feel free to PM me if you come up with anything on that specific issue and don't want to make it public.

You are not my enemy.

 

[T.Lex]

Somewhat ironically, that puts Islam in more or less the same doctrinal paradigm as Judaism, without the baggage.

Yet, Christians seem far more tolerant, doctrinally, of Jews than Muslims.

 

[miguel]

Somewhat ironically, that puts Islam in more or less the same doctrinal paradigm as Judaism, without the baggage.

Yet, Christians seem far more tolerant, doctrinally, of Jews than Muslims.

I have always jokingly referred to Christians as "Protestant Jews".

Could be that Christians see Judaism as a "source" of their faith, rather than a competitor. At least chronologically, speaking.

 

[T.Lex]

I have always jokingly referred to Christians as "Protestant Jews".

Could be that Christians see Judaism as a "source" of their faith, rather than a competitor. At least chronologically, speaking.

I don't really disagree. But, for those Christians, Islam is a younger cousin.

 

[ATM]

Any who deny the divinity of Jesus as the Messiah while attempting to somehow define Him as just a prophet or great moral teacher (rather than a liar or a lunatic) face the same dilemma to be reconciled.

I don't care what they choose to believe in that regard so much as I care to understand why and how they chose to adopt that belief and maintain it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Somewhat ironically, that puts Islam in more or less the same doctrinal paradigm as Judaism, without the baggage.

Yet, Christians seem far more tolerant, doctrinally, of Jews than Muslims.

Today, yes. Religion inevitably gets tied into politics, as both are sources of power, and the pendulum swings accordingly. It's something of an understatement to say Jews have historically not enjoyed great relations with Christians, as I'm sure you're aware.

It's not really ironic, as Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Only the Christian branch believes in the godhood of Jesus. It's a simplification, of course, but the easiest way to think of it is everyone is on the same page about the God of Abraham until Jesus. Then the Jews stay Jews and Christians split off. Then Mohammed comes along and you get another split, some stay Jews, some stay Christians, and some become Muslims. (Per the Quran, everyone was Muslim as long as they followed the most recent prophet, so pre-Jesus Jews were "Muslim" as they were doing what they were aware of as God's will, etc.) Of course there was always disagreement, different sects/schools/denominations/etc, and of course non-Abrahamic religions, but that's the bird's eye view.

There are schools which could be thought of as sort of the "Unitarian" versions of Islam, that recognize non-Abrahamic gods as incarnations of God. Hindu polytheist could be worshipping the One God, but different aspects of him at different times. Once again, I'm the wrong guy to explain the how and why of it, but the most basic understanding I have is that if God is infinite he can be whatever he wants to whoever he wants whenever he wants with no conflict, and that he presents himself in the way most suitable for the good of the people observing him (indirectly). Now, that's not a "mainstream" Islamic belief. The Quran and Mohammed were, IMO, pretty clear that polytheism is not consistent with Islam. I'm also pretty clear I'm not an infinite entity, so who am I to say what God can and can't do. Which sort of circles back to faith vs hypocrisy. I don't believe in multiple gods, and can't think of anything that would change my mind. Hence I would be a hypocrite to try and be a polytheist.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Any who deny the divinity of Jesus as the Messiah while attempting to somehow define Him as just a prophet or great moral teacher (rather than a liar or a lunatic) face the same dilemma to be reconciled.

I don't care what they choose to believe in that regard so much as I care to understand why and how they chose to adopt that belief and maintain it.

Messiah and Son of God are different things to non-Christians, including Jews and Muslims. The Quran repeatedly refers to Jesus as Messiah and speaks of his return prior to the Day of Judgement.

As an example of the logic: https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/230/descriptive-titles-of-jesus-in-quran-part-1/

His Name in the Quran
In Arabic, Jesus is known as Eesa. In sixteen of the 25 places in the Quran where Eesa is used, he is called "the son of Mary" (Ibn Maryam). Since he had no father, he was named so after his mother.[4]

The Descriptive Titles of Jesus in the Quran:

(1) The Messiah

Prior to the appearance of Jesus, belief in the coming of the Messiah has been a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Maimonides’ Thirteen Articles of Faith which are considered the minimum requirements of Jewish belief.[5] In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer[6], recited three times daily, modern Jewry prays for the Messiah who will be their king from the line of David to come and restore the glories of its golden age. In Hebrew, ‘Messiah’ means the ‘anointed one.’ It is interesting to note that the Old Testament prophecy emphasizes the humanity of the Messiah by referring to him as the "son of man" (Daniel 7: 13)[7] and not God.

The ideology of the Messiah has a central position in Christian theology. According to the Bible, Jesus claimed to be the expected Messiah of the Jews (John 4:25-26)[8], but they rejected him. Therefore, Christians apply ‘Christ’ - the Greek word for ‘Messiah’ - to Jesus. In addition, they also maintain the Messiah will be the son of God.

The Quran corrects Jews and Christians in their excesses. It considers the Jews to be in the right in believing the Messiah to be human, but equates their rejection of Jesus to disbelief,

"And (We cursed them) for their disbelief… and their boastful claim: Indeed, we have killed the [so-called] Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God. And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him." (Quran 4:156-157)

On the other hand, the Quran agrees with the Christians who identify Jesus to be the Messiah, but considers their insistence that the Messiah is the son of God to be blasphemy:

"Indeed, they are unbelievers who say, ‘God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.’" (Quran 5:72)

The truth, according to the Quran, is that:

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger; messengers before him had indeed passed away." (Quran 5:75)

Furthermore, the Quran states that the Messiah called to the worship of "the true God" like all the prophets before him:

"But the Messiah said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’" (Quran 5:72)

The Quran refers to Jesus as the Messiah (al-Maseeh) at least nine times.[9] One of the explanations given by Muslim lexicographers is that Jesus was the Messiah because he anointed the eyes of the blind to cure them (Quran 3:43; Mark 6:13; James 5:14), or because he used to lay hands on the sick.

(2) Sign

The Quran describes Jesus to be a ‘Sign,’ an aayah in the Quran. In the terminology of the Quran a miracle is a ‘sign’ of God to display divine might and unrestricted ability to do acts outside the chain of cause and effect. In this sense, the virgin birth of Jesus is a miracle; a wonderful show of God’s mighty power to do as He pleases. Therefore, Jesus is a ‘sign’ not only to the Israelites but to the entire world:

"And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign." (Quran 23:50)

"…We may make him a sign to men..." (Quran 19:21)

"and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." (Quran 21:91)

In addition, the Quran declares Jesus’ second coming to be a ‘sign,’ an announcement that the Judgment Day is coming close, "And indeed, Jesus will be a sign for the Hour (of Judgment), so have no doubt about it, and follow Me. This is a straight path." (Quran 43:61)

 

[T.Lex]

I think it an exercise in futility to require non-Christians to "reconcile" the divinity issue. It is not their belief, so it is not their issue to reconcile.

Conceptually, it is more difficult to reconcile the Trinity as non-polytheism. In fact, the Catholic construct is to not reconcile it all. Rather, it is, literally, a "mystery."

 

[ATM]

...It's not really ironic, as Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Only the Christian branch believes in the godhood of Jesus. It's a simplification, of course, but the easiest way to think of it is everyone is on the same page about the God of Abraham until Jesus. Then the Jews stay Jews and Christians split off. Then Mohammed comes along and you get another split, some stay Jews, some stay Christians, and some become Muslims...

What if I wasn't ever a Jew but was in fact a gentile only grafted into the trunk of Judaism through faith in Christ and the God He described as the same God of the Jews?

What if when Mohammed came along, I didn't recognize the god he described as the same God I placed my faith in? What if I didn't recognize Mohammed's teachings as inspired of God? What if Mohammed was just a guy describing some other god and some other way to discern and follow the will of that god?
What if Mohammed was insecure enough to suggest that what he spoke could not be subjected to questioning or even ridicule because he feared it wouldn't reasonably withstand such?

Why would I follow Mohammed or consider him to be the next in a line of prophets speaking for the God of Abraham? I rarely follow followers except as they lead me to Truth.

 

[T.Lex]

What if I wasn't ever a Jew but was in fact a gentile only grafted into the trunk of Judaism through faith in Christ and the God He described as the same God of the Jews?

This was an early issue for the Christian "church" (an outgrowth of Judaism) to resolve. That resolution was not a consensus for a couple generations.

Other than that, your questions appear to be a variation of "Why would anyone be a Muslim?"

 

[ATM]

...The Quran repeatedly...

I care bout you, not the Quran.

I do not recognize the Quran as a holy book or Mohammed as a prophet so to appeal directly to the authority of either is senseless.

Establishing the authority of either would be a different topic, one I might be interested in discussing, but not as the topic we're on.

You stated acceptance of the Bible as a holy book and Jesus as a prophet, so I need not establish either of these to you in reasonably discussing the basis of our beliefs.

Please continue as you are able and as you deem this discussion worthy of your time and thought.

 

[ATM]

This was an early issue for the Christian "church" (an outgrowth of Judaism) to resolve. That resolution was not a consensus for a couple generations.

Other than that, your questions appear to be a variation of "Why would anyone be a Muslim?"

As a Christian, I would relish being asked such a question. This is not true of all Christians, and certainly not true of all religions.

Some are mightily offended by such a reasonable question.

 

[T.Lex]

As a Christian, I would relish being asked such a question. This is not true of all Christians, and certainly not true of all religions.

Some are mightily offended by such a reasonable question.

Newsflash: you like to argue. So, questions like that feed your identity. As a somewhat kindred spirit, I don't mind the question and am certainly not offended by it.

But tone is important. Having been asked, here even, why I am Catholic, I don't mind responding. When the follow up questions clearly appear intended to inform my all the reasons Catholicism is wrong, it is not offensive, it is annoying, and I'd rather not partake.

 

[ATM]

Newsflash: you like to argue.

Newsflash: I'm prepared to. If I wasn't, I'd probably hate the thought of it and feign great offense to avoid such opportunities.

 

[T.Lex]

Newsflash: I'm prepared to. If I wasn't, I'd probably hate the thought of it and feign great offense to avoid such opportunities.

And yet, this thread is "Civil Discussion" - not "Civil Argument."

I know, fine lines and subjective boundaries. Just suggesting that, as someone who knows a thing or two about how to draw out information, you may want to modulate your approach sometimes on this issue.