Breaking: Truck Plows into Berlin Christmas Market

[T.Lex]

By destroying the Klan it ended the radical anti-Catholicism (which you yourself linked to) of elements of Protestantism.

No it didn't. There are still anti-Catholic Protestants.

The radical Protestant/KKK members were marginalized by objective application of the laws (they were not targeted because they were Protestant, a group was targeted because the members of that group advocated violence; that they shared a religious affiliation was not important).

The distinction is important.

As you know, Islam is about as fractured as Protestantism. Not all Protestants were anti-Catholic. Those that were found themselves scrutinized until social norms moved.

Scrutinizing the entirety of Protestantism would've been folly.

Calm down, stop yelling. You must have initially misunderstood. As my second response was not inconsistent with my first. If we do not have a problem with the Koran, we do have a demonstrable problem with the way some are teaching it. Either you are wrong about what it teaches, or a significant number of its teachers are. This is binary.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world.

The way you now set it out is binary. I can speak that language.

Some religious leaders (and political leaders) use religion to achieve political means. (Shocker.) Let's set a boolean for those who've attended those mosques to true.

That leaves MILLIONS of Muslims who's boolean is either null or false.

What you appeared to advocate (and some on INGO have explicitly said), that every Muslim's boolean is true until proven false.*

That is an error of logic, and could result in syntax errors.

*Your suggestion of gender/age-based discrimination is interesting, but for families it is completely unworkable. You would end up with fewer boolean-false families even trying.

 

[Woobie]

There are 10 kinds of people in this world.

The way you now set it out is binary. I can speak that language.

Some religious leaders (and political leaders) use religion to achieve political means. (Shocker.) Let's set a boolean for those who've attended those mosques to true.

That leaves MILLIONS of Muslims who's boolean is either null or false.

What you appeared to advocate (and some on INGO have explicitly said), that every Muslim's boolean is true until proven false.*

That is an error of logic, and could result in syntax errors.

*Your suggestion of gender/age-based discrimination is interesting, but for families it is completely unworkable. You would end up with fewer boolean-false families even trying.

I am perfectly comfortable with Boolean-false families not trying. That's on them.

I considered this when I made my post, but I admittedly did not research whether these acts have been committed by single or married men. Anecdotally, the Orlando shooter was married, but that is hardly enough evidence to work from. If we can point to that as an anomaly, and say that overwhelmingly these terrorists are single, then I can be comfortable modifying my position to include those married with children. But if we can not make that distinction, then I am also fine with saying only the wife and kids may come if they wish, but dad may not. Family and the concept of precious life in these places where our terrorists are often originating has a different meaning than family does here. It is hard to fathom the mindset, but suffice it to say throwing your kid in front of an MRAP so you can collect on the US payout is not unheard of.

 

[T.Lex]

I am perfectly comfortable with Boolean-false families not trying. That's on them.

Well, I'll invite a clarification from you. If a family of otherwise boolean-false people have a MAM, can the MAM come? Because, extremist recruiters would totally pass up the opportunity of an isolated young man, cut off from his family structure.

How many of our immigrant ancestors left the mother country without MAM? I can't think of a single one in my family tree. If anything, it was the MAMs that left because of a lack of opportunities.

I considered this when I made my post, but I admittedly did not research whether these acts have been committed by single or married men. Anecdotally, the Orlando shooter was married, but that is hardly enough evidence to work from. If we can point to that as an anomaly, and say that overwhelmingly these terrorists are single, then I can be comfortable modifying my position to include those married with children. But if we can not make that distinction, then I am also fine with saying only the wife and kids may come if they wish, but dad may not.

So, there is interesting research on this:
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/MG1200/MG1246/RAND_MG1246.pdf

Family and the concept of precious life in these places where our terrorists are often originating has a different meaning than family does here. It is hard to fathom the mindset, but suffice it to say throwing your kid in front of an MRAP so you can collect on the US payout is not unheard of.

That's the kind of thing that bigots say.

You can concede that the Orlando shooter was an insufficient sample size, yet you generalize the acts you saw on youtube to an entire religion, spanning many cultures. That's bigotry.

Now, for people that know people of other cultures - including in the middle east - the importance of family is a common link. It is part of our humanity. It is easier to consider people subhuman than to realize that the same basic motivators are in play.

 

[Woobie]

Well, I'll invite a clarification from you. If a family of otherwise boolean-false people have a MAM, can the MAM come? Because, extremist recruiters would totally pass up the opportunity of an isolated young man, cut off from his family structure.

How many of our immigrant ancestors left the mother country without MAM? I can't think of a single one in my family tree. If anything, it was the MAMs that left because of a lack of opportunities.



So, there is interesting research on this:
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/MG1200/MG1246/RAND_MG1246.pdf


That's the kind of thing that bigots say.

You can concede that the Orlando shooter was an insufficient sample size, yet you generalize the acts you saw on youtube to an entire religion, spanning many cultures. That's bigotry.

Now, for people that know people of other cultures - including in the middle east - the importance of family is a common link. It is part of our humanity. It is easier to consider people subhuman than to realize that the same basic motivators are in play.

1) No. It may be a ripe fruit for radicalization, but he is not here. The host nation must police up its own.

2) Your example is different in so many ways from the reality of this specific situation that it doesn't bear comparing.

3)YouTube? I know personally men who every day deal with the fact that they couldn't get their 15 ton vehicle out of the way fast enough as they watched a toddler get pushed in front of it. I know one man who was involved as security for an SF raid on an "HVT." It was a mentally handicapped man who had been turned in by his brother so he could get rid of him and simultaneously collect the check. By the way, our guys figured it out and didn't kill the guy standing there with the rifle and the dumb look on his face. But do not presume. This is reality, not bigotry. These folks are not subhuman. It is precisely the opposite that I mean by my statement. Many in their culture do not value human life, even that of their own children. It is not universal, but it is not uncommon, either. We have this here as well, manifested differently.

All I'm saying is we do not need to set immigration policy based upon how sorry we feel for others. We have a duty to protect our citizens first. We owe nothing to anyone else. That they are allowed to enter is a privilege. In light of that, if a man fits a profile, then the family is his concern, not ours. If he cares little, his family can come. If he cares much, then he may not want them leaving his side. In that case it is his burden to bear. Is that fair to him? No. But it is equitable across the field, no matter how raw for the individual. It is also raw for the individuals in NYC, Orlando, Minneapolis, etc. when we get this wrong the other way. The difference is those folks are our citizens.

 

[Trigger Time]

Only self-righteous simpletons suggest that contemporary Imams are ignorant of the Koran. There are thousands of moderate Muslim teachers preaching to millions of moderate Muslims that the Koran DOES NOT require the violence INGO says it does.


Wait, you mean people stopped accepting bigotry? No. Way.

go live among them then. As an American I bet you get beheaded within a year. And no one will report who did it even though they all will know who it was among them. That's being complicit.

the sooner we nuke one of these countries the better. Just like with the Japanese during WWII, it will end their will to fight. And if it doesn't on the first try then we pick anotherone and nuke it.
It will happen. Just give it time. There is no other way. The solution certainly won't come through people like you who wish to give everyone a hug and can't distinguish the difference between hating a race vs hating an evil cult terrorist organization

 

[T.Lex]

1) No. It may be a ripe fruit for radicalization, but he is not here. The host nation must police up its own.

2) Your example is different in so many ways from the reality of this specific situation that it doesn't bear comparing.

The artful dodge.

You know people; I know people. Indiana isn't that big. We probably know some of the same military people. I also happen to know immigrants. How many immigrant families do you know would leave their ten year old son at home while they tried to make it to the West?

3)YouTube? I know personally men who every day deal with the fact that they couldn't get their 15 ton vehicle out of the way fast enough as they watched a toddler get pushed in front of it.

"Every day"? BS. Unless it was the same idiot.

I know one man who was involved as security for an SF raid on an "HVT." It was a mentally handicapped man who had been turned in by his brother so he could get rid of him and simultaneously collect the check. By the way, our guys figured it out and didn't kill the guy standing there with the rifle and the dumb look on his face. But do not presume. This is reality, not bigotry.

The two are not mutually exclusive. There are jackasses everywhere.

But, now that you mention it - the US military has done some pretty god-awful things in the ME. Fair to generalize and say every US servicemember is evil? Every US servicemember is bloodthirsty? (You and I both know that to be false, but if we're using booleans and defaults, you're going to have a difficult time being consistent here.)

These folks are not subhuman. It is precisely the opposite that I mean by my statement. Many in their culture do not value human life, even that of their own children. It is not universal, but it is not uncommon, either. We have this here as well, manifested differently.

So - 2 things. For your immigration control to make sense with the facts you've presented, there should be examples of throwing kids in front of vehicles HERE IN THE US. Otherwise, you have a solution without a problem. Where are the examples of the current US immigration system going wrong by allowing Muslim MAMs.

And thank you for acknowledging that some sample sizes are insufficient for drawing conclusions.

All I'm saying is we do not need to set immigration policy based upon how sorry we feel for others. We have a duty to protect our citizens first. We owe nothing to anyone else.

See above. Where is US immigration failing in a way that would be addressed by your solution?

It is also raw for the individuals in NYC, Orlando, Minneapolis, etc. when we get this wrong the other way. The difference is those folks are our citizens.

Those are your examples for the failure of our immigration system? What is in the "etc.""?

 

[T.Lex]

go live among them then. As an American I bet you get beheaded within a year. And no one will report who did it even though they all will know who it was among them. That's being complicit.

Funny you should mention that. Have you ever lived outside the US? Ever BEEN outside the US?

the sooner we nuke one of these countries the better. Just like with the Japanese during WWII, it will end their will to fight. And if it doesn't on the first try then we pick anotherone and nuke it.
It will happen. Just give it time. There is no other way. The solution certainly won't come through people like you who wish to give everyone a hug and can't distinguish the difference between hating a race vs hating an evil cult terrorist organization

Thus spoke Zarabigotstra.

 

[Trigger Time]

Funny you should mention that. Have you ever lived outside the US? Ever BEEN outside the US?



Thus spoke Zarabigotstra.

yes and yes

 

[T.Lex]

yes and yes

Where? Texas doesn't really count.

 

[Trigger Time]

Where? Texas doesn't really count.

I'm not going anywhere. America is my home. I am talking about protecting it from an evil entity which wishes to change the foundation this country was built on.
And since you mention Texas I would love to see them be independent

 

[T.Lex]

I'm not going anywhere. America is my home. I am talking about protecting it from an evil entity which wishes to change the foundation this country was built on.
And since you mention Texas I would love to see them be independent

Yeah, I call BS on the living abroad thing. But, whatever.

I totally believe that you believe all Muslims are evil.

There's a word for that....

 

[Trigger Time]

Yeah, I call BS on the living abroad thing. But, whatever.

I totally believe that you believe all Muslims are evil.

There's a word for that....

like I give a **** what you think. I didn't live among a
civilian population if that's what you were getting at.
Whats the word? "Will you say it?"
I was honest with you yesterday

also if you go back and read what I posted yesterday you will see I even stated I don't believe ALL Muslims are evil. It's the organization that I believe is. I know there are good Muslims.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Just for the record, Kut did not kill T.Lex and hijack his profile.

 

[Woobie]

The artful dodge.

You know people; I know people. Indiana isn't that big. We probably know some of the same military people. I also happen to know immigrants. How many immigrant families do you know would leave their ten year old son at home while they tried to make it to the West?


"Every day"? BS. Unless it was the same idiot.



The two are not mutually exclusive. There are jackasses everywhere.

But, now that you mention it - the US military has done some pretty god-awful things in the ME. Fair to generalize and say every US servicemember is evil? Every US servicemember is bloodthirsty? (You and I both know that to be false, but if we're using booleans and defaults, you're going to have a difficult time being consistent here.)



So - 2 things. For your immigration control to make sense with the facts you've presented, there should be examples of throwing kids in front of vehicles HERE IN THE US. Otherwise, you have a solution without a problem. Where are the examples of the current US immigration system going wrong by allowing Muslim MAMs.

And thank you for acknowledging that some sample sizes are insufficient for drawing conclusions.



See above. Where is US immigration failing in a way that would be addressed by your solution?


Those are your examples for the failure of our immigration system? What is in the "etc.""?

1) they probably wouldn't leave their son. I wouldn't. So they should stay in their country or go somewhere willing to take the chance. Not my problem. He is close to an age that fits the risk profile.

2) You misunderstand. They are not hitting children every day. They live with what they, though unwilling, have done.

3) Yes, they have. It is part of the cost associated with war that we often do not account for in our rush to deploy troops. We should be much more reticent than we were in the last decade. Because bad things will happen, and if we don't want that (and we shouldn't) we shouldn't be deploying troops into war zones. It should give us pause, and deployment should be done with the knowledge that the alternative is so bad, that dead children are preferable. We need to stop lying to the American people that what we do around the world is sanitary.

4) We have recent examples of Muslim MAMs from specific nations who commit terrorism here. It has set a pattern, and we can adjust immigration policy to largely prevent that group, who accounts for a lot of this violence, from doing it here again. Don't get weepy about broken families. It breaks families here when mommies and kids at the mall get shot. The knowledge that some of those who are excluded care little for their own families should only serve to temper your sorrow for those who choose to split.

5) the etc. is more cities with more examples of terror attacks by the same group I propose we exclude from immigration.

 

[Trigger Time]

Just for the record, Kut did not kill T.Lex and hijack his profile.

na I know. I remember when t.lex first joined ingo after he tried to prosecute one of our members. A retired cop no less

 

[T.Lex]

4) We have recent examples of Muslim MAMs from specific nations who commit terrorism here.

Really. A pattern. With a significant sample size?

What are your examples, then lets compare it to the number of Muslims who've come to the US, even compare to the numbers of MAMs. And while we're at it, let's change selective service to start at 12. I mean, my 12 year old son can shoot pretty well. Let's sign him up.

It has set a pattern

BS

That's EXACTLY like saying there's a pattern of black people committing crime in cities so we really should have a policy about keeping black people out of cities.

5) the etc. is more cities with more examples of terror attacks by the same group I propose we exclude from immigration.

BS. What cities.

Oh, and TT - the word is "bigot." Look it up.

So how, as a human being, do you rationalize nuking "good" Muslims. Or is this a joke - like the only "good" Muslim is an irradiated one?

 

[Trigger Time]

T.lex wants to lump me with the kkk (which is always the othersides response to anyone who disagrees with them, call them a
nazi, call them kkk, call them a racist, attack their spelling, attack their DNA, attack their comprehension or education. Instead of arguing the issues).
youre putting words in my mouth that are contrary to things I've already posted.

 

[T.Lex]

Just for the record, Kut did not kill T.Lex and hijack his profile.

na I know. I remember when t.lex first joined ingo after he tried to prosecute one of our members. A retired cop no less

I'm still trying to get to 50 quality posts to post in the classifieds.

Speaking of which, I recall a deal that never quite got done because somehow the logistics didn't work out. Now I realize what actually happened.... I guess I'm the stupid on that one.

 

[Trigger Time]

Really. A pattern. With a significant sample size?

What are your examples, then lets compare it to the number of Muslims who've come to the US, even compare to the numbers of MAMs. And while we're at it, let's change selective service to start at 12. I mean, my 12 year old son can shoot pretty well. Let's sign him up.


BS

That's EXACTLY like saying there's a pattern of black people committing crime in cities so we really should have a policy about keeping black people out of cities.


BS. What cities.

Oh, and TT - the word is "bigot." Look it up.

So how, as a human being, do you rationalize nuking "good" Muslims. Or is this a joke - like the only "good" Muslim is an irradiated one?

Collateral damage. Hiroshima, Nagasaki
Even more so today when you have a coward enemy force that uses civilians as shields and hides among them extreme force must be used.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

This...

T.lex wants to lump me with the kkk...

Doesn't jive with this:

youre putting words in my mouth that are contrary to things I've already posted.

No one is lumping anyone with the KKK.