Boy Scouts train to fight terrorists

[Willard]

I was not aware that the POTUS had any specified "core values." Perhaps you could point me to that.

As for the military, you might want to be more specific. While there are certainly "bad eggs" in the military (show me a group of close to two million people--active and reserve--anywhere that doesn't have some "bad eggs"), my own experience is that the military does a pretty good job of holding to it's "core values" (said to me by my TI on the day I reported for Basic: "I don't care what you think you joined the Air Force for, from this moment on, you are here for three reasons--Duty, Honor, Country.")

You totally missed my point.........

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Regarding military, I'm talking big picture, not servicemen & women, they simply follow orders. Examples? Ruby Ridge & Waco come to mind right off the bat.......let me know if you want more.

 

[dburkhead]

You totally missed my point.........

No, I got your point. I just disagreed with it.

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Well, there you are: "to the best of my Ability."

Unfortunately, the voters have persisted in choosing people whose ability in that area is extraordinarily weak.

Regarding military, I'm talking big picture, not servicemen & women, they simply follow orders.

Um. No. That wasn't my training. And speaking to other folk who have or currently are serving, that is far from the case.

For one thing, military personnel (at least by the time they get to the mid to upper NCO ranks) get a great deal of training on "unlawful orders" and that one is not only permitted but required to disobey such an order.

My sources for this include:
Myself (former E-4 Sergeant in the USAF)
A retired Chief Petty Officer of the United States Navy
A retired Colonel--former JAG, former instructor at the Army War College.
A currently serving E-6 Tech Sergeant in the Air National Guard with 23 years of service
Numerous others for whom I don't have the service details at the moment.

They all report what I said above.

The "just follows orders" bit usually comes from getting ones information about the military too much from Hollywood.

Examples? Ruby Ridge & Waco come to mind right off the bat.......let me know if you want more.

Ruby Ridge: FBI.
Waco: FBI and BATF.

Nope. Not military operations in either case.

 

[flagtag]

"to the best of my Ability"?
No, it has very little to do with "Ability". It's their CHOICE to ignore - or refuse to "honor" their Oath of Office.

True, many of them are inept, but most just "lie" when they swear (affirm) thier Oath. They have no intenition of honoring it. It's just part of the "ceremony" that they have to get through before heading on to the party.

They do, however, have the "Ability" to become even more corrupt. (They work pretty hard at it.)

 

[dburkhead]

"to the best of my Ability"?
No, it has very little to do with "Ability". It's their CHOICE to ignore - or refuse to "honor" their Oath of Office.

True, many of them are inept, but most just "lie" when they swear (affirm) thier Oath. They have no intenition of honoring it. It's just part of the "ceremony" that they have to get through before heading on to the party.

They do, however, have the "Ability" to become even more corrupt. (They work pretty hard at it.)

So "the best of their ability" does not include the ability to put their personal goals and agendas aside for the purpose of the Constitution.

"Do not worry about all that could have been.
All that was, is all that could have been.
No more. No less."

 

[SavageEagle]

For one thing, military personnel (at least by the time they get to the mid to upper NCO ranks) get a great deal of training on "unlawful orders" and that one is not only permitted but required to disobey such an order.

The "just follows orders" bit usually comes from getting ones information about the military too much from Hollywood.

"to the best of my Ability"?
No, it has very little to do with "Ability". It's their CHOICE to ignore - or refuse to "honor" their Oath of Office.

True, many of them are inept, but most just "lie" when they swear (affirm) thier Oath. They have no intenition of honoring it. It's just part of the "ceremony" that they have to get through before heading on to the party.

They do, however, have the "Ability" to become even more corrupt. (They work pretty hard at it.)

To get this back on track before we stray too far from the threads OP....

This all said above is things the scouts learn about. I will scan my copy of the BSA Handbook tomorrow when I can get my scanner out. Loyalty, Honesty, these things all are taught as the core values in Boy Scouts just as they are the Military. This is the main reason why one of my top three criteria for being POTUS is being a veteran of any branch of the Military. Being an Eagle Scout is in my top 5. By my own criteria I wouldn't even vote for myself if I ran for POTUS! LoL

Either way. I've said it quite a few times, I'll say it again. no one has anything to worry about from the Boy Scouts. Period.

 

[Willard]

Waco:
Waco: Military Involvement - U.S. Government Info/Resources

RR:
In August, of 1992, an eleven—day siege of the Weaver home in North Idaho began. A federal agent charged that Weaver had a shotgun with the barrel 1/4" too short. Weaver said it was a frame up for refusing to pimp for the government. Over 500 Federal personnel (federal marshals, FBI and ATF agents, US Army soldiers, some of whom had just returned from the killing fields in Iraq) surrounded the Weaver home; and above in the sky flew US Air Force planes and personnel. Included in the Federals on the ground were crack snipers, trained at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia. Their job was to kill Weaver.

1/4 Inch:* Randy Weaver and Ruby Ridge Idaho

Regarding the rest of it.........opinions vary..........

 

[dburkhead]

Waco:
Waco: Military Involvement - U.S. Government Info/Resources

• 
  [*]Surveillance
  [*]Reconnaissance
  [*]Transport
  [*]Maintenance & Repairs
  [*]Training & Instruction
  [*]Helicopters
  [*]Unarmed tactical ground vehicles

So basically peripheral stuff and equipment. Note also that the units involved were AF (basically reconnaissance) and guard units which are not the same as active duty military. For one thing, guard units do have a law enforcement function when not Federalized and that "Federalized" in this context has a specific meaning which was not in play at Waco.

In addition, the guard and AF were basically lied to about the mission. The whole "counterdrug" operation which was essentially made up whole cloth.

Consider the following scenario by way of analogy: a bomber crew is given orders to fly to a particular location and destroy an ammo dump that is being used for attacks on US troops. What they don't know is that the person giving them their pre-mission briefing simply hates orphans and the location is actually an orphanage. The bomber crew carries out the mission.

The "fault" in that scenario lies not with the bomber crew, but with the person who lied to them about the nature of the target.

That's what happened at Waco.

RR:
In August, of 1992, an eleven—day siege of the Weaver home in North Idaho began. A federal agent charged that Weaver had a shotgun with the barrel 1/4" too short. Weaver said it was a frame up for refusing to pimp for the government. Over 500 Federal personnel (federal marshals, FBI and ATF agents, US Army soldiers, some of whom had just returned from the killing fields in Iraq) surrounded the Weaver home; and above in the sky flew US Air Force planes and personnel. Included in the Federals on the ground were crack snipers, trained at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia. Their job was to kill Weaver.

1/4 Inch:* Randy Weaver and Ruby Ridge Idaho

http://www.louisbeam.com/14inch.htm

I suspect that if you tried you would be able to find a more biased article to "support" your claim. It would take some effort though.

Just who were these "US Army soldiers"? Was there an actual military unit involved? If so, why is the unit not named? Or were these members of the BATF and FBI who happened to also be in the National Guard and had been deployed during Desert Shield/Storm? Or perhaps people who had just separated from the military and joined the FBI or BATF? The article just makes the assertion without any actual evidence or references to support it.

And that reference to snipers? Last time I looked the military does not train their snipers at the FBI Academy at Quantico. The military has their own schools--some internal, some contracted with civilian organizations.

Regarding the rest of it.........opinions vary..........

And I've given the factual basis for mine. I'd dearly love to see what, if any, actual basis you have for a different one.

The training on illegal orders and the duty to disobey them is not, btw, a matter of opinion. It is fact. At least one of the folk in my previous list did just that--disobeyed a direct order that happened to be "illegal" (in this case in violation of peacetime safety regs, IIRC). Didn't hurt her career--she ended up making Chief and retiring from the US Navy many years later. That, BTW, was only one of several incidents that she alluded to. Another on my list taught the classes.

That the US military "just follows orders" is not "opinion." It's simply wrong. Calling it opinion doesn't make it right any more than calling "2 + 2 = 5" an opinion makes it any less wrong.