Black man shot in Kenosha, riots starting all over again...

[jamil]

This... looking for the video again... my first impression was a "startle reflex" from the shot going off that struck skateboarder dude, not a "surrender"... then an immediate resumption.

The still image that looks like a hands-ups surrender was an instant only during that startle reflex at the sound of the gunshot, IMO.

Looking for the video again to re-evaluate...

I think this is right. You can stop a video at any time and make it imply what happened before and what might happen after. But seeing the video in motion tells the complete story. I don’t think that was a surrender. It seemed like more of a reactive pause and then resumption. Then there’s the post where one of his friends claimed he said he wished he hadn’t hesitated and shot him.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

[video=youtube_share;QhYiuOccDI0]http://youtu.be/QhYiuOccDI0[/video]

Another possible twist. Maybe this is why the DA is charging him with the weapons charge. If he can get that to stick he could probably argue that Kyle’s “illegal” possession of a firearm incited the crowd to chase him, thereby thwarting the self defense claim. I think it’s a tough sell. Even if the weapons charge sticks, the thing that incited the crowd was Kyle putting out their dumpster fire.

I don’t think that’s a good argument. The people chasing him didn’t know he was “illegally” (not illegal, but that’s a different discussion) carrying a rifle. They weren’t trying to enforce the law. They were trying to harm him, in which case he defended himself. How would they have known he was 17 and “illegally” carrying a rifle? If that’s the argument they’re making then I’m gonna die laughing, because after the shooting they all cried vigilantism is wrong*** now they’re going to argue that they were being vigilantes trying to disarm someone who had a rifle illegally? C’mon.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Also, how can people breaking the law legally detain someone else for breaking the law? That’s like me being robbed, and then the robber “detaining” me because I pulled a concealed weapon without having a permit. Seems pretty damn stupid

 

[Jaybird1980]

Thanks, Kut. I appreciate this perspective.

I wonder if part of the issue is that there are many cultural differences from rural to urban (and I don't mean that as a proxy/euphemism for racial cultural differences) that are difficult for LE to overcome (and I assume such LE would e more frequently exposed to those cultural differences, and more frequently impacted by engaging with them)? If that is the case, are we as a society past the point where those who are subjected to the sort of disparate treatment as you describe can no longer effect change by enduring the injustice and then trying to educate afterward? (Maybe so?)

Part of the resistance by the general public to a lot of petition for redress of grievance, I think, is because it is wrapped up on the response to the injustice, and what is seen as extreme over-reaction. The black kid handcuffed in the back of the patrol car for possession while the white kid is sitting on the curb, for example - maybe the black kid is justified in however he responds to that, but it garners little sympathy all too often, when that response is seen as far beyond the offense. (There are probably lots of better examples than this one.)

I'm really just thinking out loud, mixing up the response of society at large and LEO interactions, and trying to understand/bridge the gap in the lack of understanding that is at the root of all of this.

But, back to your original example: what is the solution for the culturally naive/inexperienced LEOs in those situations?

I think this also comes back to stereotypes, like it or not they exist. I know I would pay a lil more attention to the kid in the jersey and baggy pants. Why, because I have past experience with people dressed exactly like that, I have never been harassed by a kid in a polo and khakis.

 

[Hohn]

I think this is right. You can stop a video at any time and make it imply what happened before and what might happen after. But seeing the video in motion tells the complete story. I don’t think that was a surrender. It seemed like more of a reactive pause and then resumption. Then there’s the post where one of his friends claimed he said he wished he hadn’t hesitated and shot him.

If you watch the video it’s obvious there’s no desire or attempt to surrender. It’s just an out of context still designed to further the fictional Narrative.

 

[chipbennett]

Jesus Christ Chip. WTF? What ghosts are you arguing at? They must have rankled you pretty hard to go at them like that.

About the weapons charge. I posted an article that quoted two Wisconsin lawyers who specialize in 2a/firearms cases. Both said that the carveout was intended for hunting, but the wording made it easy to interpret that it applies to any purpose. One of the lawyers said something to the effect that if it were his case, he would argue for some rule that gives benefit of doubt to the defendant for such laws. I’ll take the practicing lawyer’s word for it who is familiar with litigating firearms cases in Wisconsin. Seeing his explanation for it, I do think that Kyle was technically legal for carring the firearm, and I hope he beats it.

The one that set me off was a commenter on one of Jim Lucas's facebook posts.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

If you watch the video it’s obvious there’s no desire or attempt to surrender. It’s just an out of context still designed to further the fictional Narrative.

Yup... Here's a good video of the street shooting that also explains where the "hands up" still comes from... the video was taken from one side of the street while a still photographer was shooting pictures from the other side of the street. This was new news to me, but explains the stills.

RE-watching the video confirms my original impression. At the sound of the gunshot that strikes the skate board assailant, Grosskreutz immediately "cowers" and covers his head for a fraction of a second, then resumes his motion, lowering the gun hand, advances a couple steps and is shot in the arm.

The still photographs only appear to show "surrender" if the first still is ignored, when he was still cowering down as well as the third still which shows that he had advanced and closed the distance to Kyle on the ground. Only the second still, for an instance, appears to show "surrender". (notably, another would be attacker just several feet away, maybe 10?, DID surrender, backed away, and was not shot)

And that is just on the basis of the video. As Jamil reminded, lefty's friend recounted on twitter that from the hospital he (Grosskreutz) wished he hadn't "hesitated" but instead had emptied his magazine into Kyle. That's what I see, a hesitation at the report of the rifle mere feet away, then an almost immediate resumption of an attempt to attack.
(2:19)

[video=youtube;EYjG4uequWQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYjG4uequWQ&bpctr=1599335485[/video]

 

[NKBJ]

So if you're in a gun fight then squeezing the trigger can be a good choice?

This episode makes me think about being young, with pumping hormones, driving emotions and a gun.
I'm sure glad I survived youthidity with everything still attached.

 

[actaeon277]

Related to that... my son is 19, he has several friends that are black. They hang out together, etc. He recently had a "woke" female try to cancel him because he failed to change his background to a black color on a social media app. She accused him of being a racist and honestly thinks she is striking a blow for justice by alienating him and his friends. He told me that the strangest part is that the girl in question doesn't actually have any black friends herself. Fortunately, they are all secure enough to ignore her, but the ideologues make it harder for all of us to understand each other.

But that doesn't make the news.
Only the bad stuff does.

 

[actaeon277]

The one that set me off was a commenter on one of Jim Lucas's facebook posts.

I haven't been on FB for a few days.
But some of the commenters on his page, oh my.

 

[indykid]

The right of the people who are 18 years old and above to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... not.

 

[protias]

The right of the people who are 18 years old and above to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... not.

You might as well add, single shot, no full auto, barrel length, gfsz, etc, etc, etc.

I'm just going to post this again since there are some people don't seem to understand WI law (not directed at you indykid).

https://wiba.iheart.com/featured/vi...to-talk-about-the-kyle-rittenhouse-situation/

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/139-...ode/eric-trump-bumbling-biden-and-a-70899423/

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I think this is right. You can stop a video at any time and make it imply what happened before and what might happen after. But seeing the video in motion tells the complete story. I don’t think that was a surrender. It seemed like more of a reactive pause and then resumption. Then there’s the post where one of his friends claimed he said he wished he hadn’t hesitated and shot him.

I think the kid's rifle malfunctioned while shooting the skateboard guy.

The kid tries shoot the advancing glock guy who puts his hands up in an "oh **** I am getting shot" response.
The kid realizes he has a dead trigger and racks the charging handle.
Glock guy tries to press the kid while the kid is racking the rifle, but is a hair slow and the kid pops him in the arm.

Not sure, but that is what it looks like to me. If that is what happened, kudos to the kid for instantly racking the rifle on a malfunction instead of just starring at it for even a half second. He didn't have half a second to waste.

 

[KG1]

I think Rittenhouse showed incredible poise while handling the rifle given what he was faced with and he did not shoot anyone that wasn't in his mind a direct threat to him which clearly demonstrates to me that he was acting in self defense.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Dangit. I tried to get him too, but no luck.

Its da man, holding him down. Honest. I was told that is the reason by CNN.

I see white people and black people together rioting, fighting against an imagined enemy. But it does not appear that it’s the same kind of friendship that binds them. Allies are not necessarily friends. That relationship appears to be artificial. Those cyclists bike together because they obviously enjoy each other’s company while doing what they like doing. Do the “protestors” riot together because they enjoy each other’s company?

Its a bunch of liberal woke self hating guilty feeling white folk that think they know what is best for their black neighbors and the only way to get this done is for them to speak up, because they are so accidentally bigoted that they think nobody will listen to blacks alone. Just as patronizing as how you would escort your kid to complain about a mis-made grill order convinced that the worker wont take your kid serious and tell them to scram. (Different than the kid not confident enough to complain) In some ways its kinda patronizing I think. If this was a suffrage thing the guys would get yelled at for mansplaining and told to sit down because they can handle it.

Oh, and some just want an excuse to burn down.

Thanks for sharing. I’m working right now to shift all of my auto-payments on Discover over to USAA. I ripped into the Discover person and asked if it was their role to limit where I can spend money or facilitate my payment to where I choose to spend money?

F them.

CKW did this with her Discover card this morning. Tore some poor fool a new orifice.

PLEASE folks, stop treating these in the trench workers like !!!!! I know the policy sucks but that policy was made WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY over their collective heads and this is not their fault. Be polite, be firm, and be clear. But DONT. SHOOT. THE MESSENGER. They have nothing to do with this except choosing to work for Discover and having the fate of answering your call.

How would you feel if somebody yelled at you for something your boss', boss', boss' boss did that you had no input on? Hell, the decision wasnt even anywhere NEAR your department.

Now if you want to call Discover's CEO and leave a strongly worded message, OK. But dont mistreat the innocent peons. Politely tell them why you are cancelling, and bid them a nice day. They dont deserve your wrath, but your respect as a human being (with feelings).

I think Rittenhouse showed incredible poise while handling the rifle given what he was faced with and he did not shoot anyone that wasn't in his mind a direct threat to him which clearly demonstrates to me that he was acting in self defense.

Yep, if he was really the cold hearted killer they are making him out to be, he would have finished that magazine on anything around him that moved.

 

[Route 45]

Warning: Language and disco

[video=youtube;SLywgT7Q8E0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLywgT7Q8E0&feature=youtu.be[/video]

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Warning: Language and disco

[video=youtube;SLywgT7Q8E0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLywgT7Q8E0&feature=youtu.be[/video]

That makes me wanna put on... my my my my my boogie shoes...

 

[churchmouse]

Its da man, holding him down. Honest. I was told that is the reason by CNN.



Its a bunch of liberal woke self hating guilty feeling white folk that think they know what is best for their black neighbors and the only way to get this done is for them to speak up, because they are so accidentally bigoted that they think nobody will listen to blacks alone. Just as patronizing as how you would escort your kid to complain about a mis-made grill order convinced that the worker wont take your kid serious and tell them to scram. (Different than the kid not confident enough to complain) In some ways its kinda patronizing I think. If this was a suffrage thing the guys would get yelled at for mansplaining and told to sit down because they can handle it.

Oh, and some just want an excuse to burn down.





PLEASE folks, stop treating these in the trench workers like !!!!! I know the policy sucks but that policy was made WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY over their collective heads and this is not their fault. Be polite, be firm, and be clear. But DONT. SHOOT. THE MESSENGER. They have nothing to do with this except choosing to work for Discover and having the fate of answering your call.

How would you feel if somebody yelled at you for something your boss', boss', boss' boss did that you had no input on? Hell, the decision wasnt even anywhere NEAR your department.

Now if you want to call Discover's CEO and leave a strongly worded message, OK. But dont mistreat the innocent peons. Politely tell them why you are cancelling, and bid them a nice day. They dont deserve your wrath, but your respect as a human being (with feelings).



Yep, if he was really the cold hearted killer they are making him out to be, he would have finished that magazine on anything around him that moved.

Just a slight aside to your comment my good friend.....

When I and CKW both made our calls to Discover we were civil and spoke very mildly until the "In the trench" dip started into their script and would not STFU. After several attempts on both our parts to cut this idiocy short to no avail the burners were turned up to the appropriate levels so we could GTFO the phone and get on with our lives. HMOG those people are irritating. Yes I know they have a set script for any issues they deal with but man, when the customer asks them to stop then STFU, cancel my damned account and let me get off this phone.........Argh.

They had no desire to be cooperative after we stated our reasoning to cancel.

 

[KG1]

That was entertaining. What was that dance move called? "The High Step'n Hotfoot"? "Antifa Shuffle"?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

That was entertaining. What was that dance move called? "The High Step'n Hotfoot"? "Antifa Shuffle"?

I don't know, but that guy needs to get on "America's Got Talent" with that dance routine.