Beyond 500 yds?

[nailknocker]

While I don't consider my self a true prepper, I have in the past few years rebuilt my gun collection to fall inline with the suggested basic shtf arsenal.

I have the prerequsite magazine fed bullet spewing 5.56, I see this as a 200 yd. rifle, it still wears it's iron sights. Now to make up for it's somewhat limited range, I have added a very nice scoped bolt gun in the same caliber. I can, and do now hunt squirrels out to four and five hundred yds. The 5.56 is capable of killing at these ranges as reported by many returning from our recent foreign intrigues.

Now my question is, why do I need a hi powered rifle to complete my arsenal? Everybody says you need one to reach out and touch someone. If the 5.56 is capable of a kill shot at 500 yds, why do I need to reach out farther than that.

The 30 cal. and up big bores have no practical hunting applications in Indiana. I personally don't feel that I would have an enemy beyond that range, and if I did, I probably wouldn't see it coming.

I'm always open to a new gun, if it's relevant, but a big bore with a scope that would be effective beyond the 500 yd. mark is no small investment. The 5.56 rifles I already have were not cheap.

Some of this post should be in purple, but seriously does anyone really see a need beyond the 500 yd. mark?

 

[sloughfoot]

OK, you have convinced me that you have your needs covered.

500 yards IS the riflemans quarter mile. If you are happy with the .223 out to 500 yards, I won't change your mind. The .223 will put down a person at 500 yards. Of that there is no question, at least with the proper bullet.

Lots of folks want a 30 caliber for the same purpose, so what? (I prefer one myself)

You lose my interest however, when you claim squirrel kills at 500 yards while "hunting' them. After these astounding shots, do you retrieve the dead animal for the pot or do you just look for another victim of your skills?

Regards

 

[trillobite]

This is why I sold my Tokarev rifle. I can't see that far anymore, so it's kinda silly to keep around a big gun with heavy ammo. Trying to reduce the number of different pistols, also. I'd like to be down to three calibers, wishfully I'd like to just have two calibers. But, neither .22 or 7.62x39 are universal pistol calibers. Still leaves me with 9mm and .380 to decide between. I'm thinking I'll get a pair of .22 pistols, and another AK47, so I won't have to bum my wife's rifle. Sure, .22 is small, but I still wouldn't want shot with it.

 

[RAMBOCAT]

a used savage 110 with bull barrel and decent glass in .308 won't put much of a dent in your cash and will add the heavy punch you need for shooting thru light barriers and to keep knock down power for long shots. in short, think of it like fire insurance, it's not worth a thing until you need it......

 

[churchmouse]

I have an AR variant in .223 With a 24 inch bull barrel just for 500 plus yds. It will pop a 1 liter bottle at that distance with no cross winds. The .223 gets pushed around that far out even with .75 grain Hornady tap. My 30-06 is less effected and will repeat better at that range at least in my hands. It is a Remington 700 with an average but effective optic and I have less in this piece than any .223 I own. On top of that it is a freaking "Hoot" to shoot.
There are so many different rounds available at a reasonable price and I believe it will kill a car with a properly placed shot at 500 plus yds. Great gun.

 

[Streck-Fu]

You may reach to 500 yrds with .223 but what will you kill at that distance?

 

[Sailor]

You may reach to 500 yrds with .223 but what will you kill at that distance?

At 500 yrds the .223 bullet will be traveling about 1653fps. That will kill lots of things.

 

[mike8170]

I have made kills at 500 meters with the M4 Carbine, since the desert is really no place to hide. It is nothing to screw with. I like to have a .30 caliber bolt rifle with AP ammunition for hardend targets, and targets behind cover. It is nice to have a skilled marksman in the overwatch position to keep an eye on your back.

 

[sur+rifle]

As you mentioned, the 5.56 is definitely capable of being stretched to 500 yards. However, ammo selection for distance becomes more of an issue than with a 30 caliber. You didn't mention barrel lengths, but M193 type rounds will have a velocity in the 1300 to 1500 fps at that range. To put this into perspective, this isn't much different than a 50 grain 22 win mag rimfire round fired at point blank. By contrast a 30 caliber round at this distance would be more than equivalent to a 357 magnum round fired point blank. So, definitely a sizable difference in stopping power/time even if both are ultimately lethal. Heavier rounds like the M855 would improve upon this situation, especially in your bolt action if it has a 20 inch+ barrel.

While I have an AR, I choose to also have more powerful rifles for the extra capabilities they afford. And there definitely are preparedness advantages for me. For example, I live in a small city and the water tower is within 1000 yards of all residences. If some wacko were to use that as a shooting base (think Charles Whitman), an AR would be at a serious disadvantage employed in a counter-sniping role. Other examples of 30 caliber advantages are cited above like stopping vehicles and engaging hardened targets.

For most preppers, these types of Gedankenexperiment lead to the conclusion that full power rifles have a "nice to have" but not necessarily "must have" position on their preparedness lists. It seems that for you, time and money may be better spent on optimizing your 5.56 loads first; perhaps heavier long range loads for the bolt action and lighter, better fragmenting loads for the semi. But who can predict what scenarios the future brings?

 

[wlong0741]

One aspect you haven't considered was barrier penetration. While the maximum effective range on a point target of a fine AR rifle is slightly higher than 600 meters, what if you had to fire into a barrier at say 300 yards? Glass, plywood, brick, etc.? The question then becomes one of ballistic need. Your 5.56 will do fine on soft targets out to the range you suggest, but supplement it with something in 7.62x51. Stay away from exotic rounds such as .300 Win Mag, or .338 Lapau. In a SHTF scenario these rounds will be less common, and you could even buy a dedicated marksman rifle and a battle rifle in 7.62x51 (308). The additional penetration will allow you to engage lightly armored vehicles (civilian vehicles) and subjects behind cover. Remember, cover is temporary, the more you shoot it the more it is degraded.

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

So what "long range" SHTF rifle would be recommended besides a .30 cal already m,entioned?

 

[churchmouse]

You may reach to 500 yrds with .223 but what will you kill at that distance?

Several Coyote. They really do not like being knocked on their butts even at 500 yds. Using .75 gr Hornady tap seems to give it the extra umph at that range. I doubt it would kill a car but I would not want to be the target of it even at that range. It will gut a yote.
The 30.06 will decimate a Coyote. I know it is not the .308 preferred by some with good reason but with the right round it will stop a car. Practice on old wrecks at 300 yds showed me this is true. Round through the fender and smashed the carb.

 

[indyjohn]

The 30 cal. and up big bores have no practical hunting applications in Indiana. I personally don't feel that I would have an enemy beyond that range, and if I did, I probably wouldn't see it coming.

Some of this post should be in purple, but seriously does anyone really see a need beyond the 500 yd. mark?

In SHTF circumstances, the big bores have EVERY practical application as the shotgun law no longer applies. If I'm on the south edge of a cornfield and the only deer I've seen all day long is standing along the treeline on the far north side of the cornfield, I want to be damn sure I'm taking it home with me.

My SHTF plan includes a .308 with a 10x scope with dope out to 700 yds. And I have a 1000 yd laser rangefinder to zero in on the target. Be it dinner or foe.

 

[wlong0741]

So what "long range" SHTF rifle would be recommended besides a .30 cal already m,entioned?

I would buy the best one you could afford. Do some research on what some people are saying about Military rifle testing. The M24 (Remington 700) rifle is great for precision, but slow on multiple engagements and limited to an internal 5 round magazine (M24A1) or 10 round detachable magazine (M24A2). These types of rifles sell for about $700 without optics.

The Army replaced them with the more expensive M110 built by Knights Industries. These sell for about $9000. However, Remington/DPMS Panther submitted a SASS rifle for the competition that many reviewers felt was superior. I have one of these rifles, which sold for $2300 and came completely set up, minus optics.

Semiautomatics like the SASS or Springfield M1As are great for multiple engagements and have detachable box magazines. They do sacrifice some accuracy but I feel it is negligible. I still keep my shots just under 6" at 600 yards. 1 MOA is definitely acceptable. If you "need" half minute of angle go with a finely tuned Remington 700.

As far as optics, don't buy a $3000 rifle and put a $40 scope on it. You get what you pay for. Cheap scopes cannot handle hard field use. Also stick with a fixed power x10 scope with mil dots and a side parallax adjustment knob. If you get an adjustable power scope get something with mil dots and make sure the cross hairs are on the first plane so when you adjust power the mil dot adjustments remain the same.

 

[churchmouse]

Great thread. I do not buy the best glass as I am not hunting in Wyoming. Mostly mid range as I have more than a few to put glass on so it is a balance act. No $40 pieces anywhere but no Leopold. My 30.06 is still steam rolling at 600 plus. At that range it is up to a lot of factors beyond your control. Practice, practice, practice.

 

[Icarry2]

I have to chime in. A point that has been brushed on a little is skills. Shooting long range, past 200 yards, with any rifle isn't something that everyone can do. Add to that moving targets beyond 50 yards... All I am saying is a person only needs the "tools" they can utilize. If you arent trained in long range shooting you might want to get schooled. Find someone with a weapon to try out before you dump cash in a niche rifle that you can't shoot for crap.

I would be more then happy to let anyone who wanted to try a .308, 24" heavy barrel bolt gun with decent glass zero'd at 200 yards shoot mine.

If you cant shoot mine then why buy your own....???

Just my pennies, i dont know anything, but i have recently stayed at a Holiday Inn Express...

TJ

 

[MrYesterday]

I have to chime in. A point that has been brushed on a little is skills. Shooting long range, past 200 yards, with any rifle isn't something that everyone can do.

Although I agree, he stated in the first paragraph that he has shot squirrels at 500y so that's really a non issue. (if he, in fact, can)

 

[Icarry2]

Although I agree, he stated in the first paragraph that he has shot squirrels at 500y so that's really a non issue. (if he, in fact, can)

I agree but I was talking about others who would be considering purchasing a long range weapons system. Basically try it before you buy it..

 

[nailknocker]

Thanks for the recent replies guys!! The squirrel shooting at five hundred yards, was a tongue in cheek appraisel of the rifles accuracy. I don't have a safe place to shoot at that kind of range locally, our range is 225 max.

When I bought the rifle my wife, not a gun person, wanted to know what I needed such a thing for, that was my explaintion, to shoot squirel's at 500 yds.

I took her and another couple to the range not long ago, my buddy was in the market for a 223 and wanted to try mine. we had also taken some other guns just for some plinking.

Well, we shot at some paper targets, but we also had a bunch of out of date 16 oz. plastic coke bottles, the range allows this as long as you clean up your mess. we were cleaning up and getting ready to leave, and the wife said are there any bottles still down at the 225 yd mark, yes there were, she wanted to try a shot. Now this woman had never fired anything bigger than a 22, and I don't think she had ever used a scope.
So I set the spotters scope back up, picked a bottle,gave her a 30 second lesson on how to place the crosshairs, she put the rifle across my range box and touched one off.
She was just left, by half an inch, jacked another round into the rifle fired again, the coke bottle exploded, her words,"thats no fun, that scope thingy makes it to easy"

I love this woman!!

 

[Icarry2]

I love this woman!!

Have to love the steady shot she made though..

As for shooting squirrels at 500 yards, well If I could find a place where it was legal to try for real I would..

Speaking of limited ranges. Where is there a 300, 400 or longer range in Indiana that someone could recommend. I would really like to let my 308 stretch it's legs so to speak..

As for the original topic, have you decided if your going shopping for a big rifle?