Beer Virus V

[dusty88]

Not to wearing; rather, to state mandating the wearing.

Well that's good if that's where the position is now.

 

[T.Lex]

This is the real question. I and others are not willing to give up essential liberties for a little, temporary safety - even for this virus.

Ok, count me in the group, too.

But what essential liberty is implicated in limiting restaurants to 50% capacity?

 

[BugI02]

Whether or not we should lock down is another debate lockdowns have a lot of different definitions.

As far as why my question and your response are not connected there are two reasons

The first reason is that in medical terms asymptomatic is not the same thing as pre-symptomatic. The second problem is that even when we're talking about asymptomatic people a small percentage of them could theoretically be spreading quite a bit of disease even if most of them don't spread it.

To reference, the hypothetical part is highlighted

hypothetical
adjective

imagined or suggested but not necessarily real or true:

 

[chipbennett]

Ok, count me in the group, too.

But what essential liberty is implicated in limiting restaurants to 50% capacity?

Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of the restaurant owner, who cannot make ends meet (i.e. gainful profits, not to mention gainful employment for the people employed by that business owner) long-term with state-mandated limited capacity?

 

[BugI02]

No. Asymptomatic means without symptoms - period. There is no implication to the future. It is scientifically unacceptable to try to change the definition of a word for convenience. This just muddies up communication. Clear and accurate communication is important.

Maybe you need a different word but don't try to change asymptomatic to something it does not mean.

The way you wish to use asymptomatic is time dependent, and is better replaced with presymptomatic as a way to distinguish between those that will eventually develop symptoms from those that never will

 

[chipbennett]

Well that's good if that's where the position is now.

That has always been my position. When a store, or my church, airlines, a work client, etc. requires a mask, I wear a mask without complaint.

The line for me is state mandating of mask wearing and/or compelling businesses to engage in sub-optimal business practices as determined by the business owners.

 

[dusty88]

Ok, count me in the group, too.

But what essential liberty is implicated in limiting restaurants to 50% capacity?

I would say that falls under the right to conduct commerce (which the government interferes in, in more ways than I can name)

Then we get back around to the whole issue of an infectious disease epidemic, whether you are causing harm to others by spreading disease.

It's my position that personal rights conflict in a disease outbreak and it is one of those rare topics where it really is a matter of degrees of severity and impact, not clear who has the priority "right".

I'd prefer we could do this with voluntary behavior, but maybe that's not possible in a society so politically divided right now. Everyone is suspicious of "the others" motives.



Then we get into economic compensation and government spending.


There is no perfect solution here between mitigating the virus, maintaining everyone's freedom and right to travel (including right to travel without someone throwing pathogens at you) and allowing free commerce.

I wish more people, especially the politicians could have those conversations from the standpoint of "this is going to be tough no matter how we do it, let's talk" rather than the staunce positions, falsehoods, and accusations.

 

[nonobaddog]

This is merely being argumentative, to no beneficial end. I'm stating what terms I and others are using and how they are being used. I'm not going to debate how those terms are used. If you choose to use different terminology, more power to you. But I'm not going to debate terminology.

Whatever. But I am disappointed. You know better.

asymptomatic

adjective

asymp·​tom·​at·​ic | \ ˌā-ˌsim(p)-tə-ˈma-tik
Definition of asymptomatic

: not causing, marked by, or presenting with signs or symptoms of infection, illness, or disease

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/asymptomatic

 

[T.Lex]

Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of the restaurant owner, who cannot make ends meet (i.e. gainful profits, not to mention gainful employment for the people employed by that business owner) long-term with state-mandated limited capacity?

So now government is in the position of guaranteeing a living wage to restaurant owners? Superceding public health?

Those capacity limits are set by the state anyway, so would not changing them also be within the state jurisdictional?

 

[BugI02]

Not to wearing; rather, to state mandating the wearing.

This. I decide whether and where it makes sense implement any mitigation. If we grant the state power to enforce mask wearing, whither contact tracing? Will we grant the state the power to enforce quarantine on the merely technically exposed?

 

[chipbennett]

I would say that falls under the right to conduct commerce (which the government interferes in, in more ways than I can name)

Then we get back around to the whole issue of an infectious disease epidemic, whether you are causing harm to others by spreading disease.

It's my position that personal rights conflict in a disease outbreak and it is one of those rare topics where it really is a matter of degrees of severity and impact, not clear who has the priority "right".

I'd prefer we could do this with voluntary behavior, but maybe that's not possible in a society so politically divided right now. Everyone is suspicious of "the others" motives.



Then we get into economic compensation and government spending.


There is no perfect solution here between mitigating the virus, maintaining everyone's freedom and right to travel (including right to travel without someone throwing pathogens at you) and allowing free commerce.

I wish more people, especially the politicians could have those conversations from the standpoint of "this is going to be tough no matter how we do it, let's talk" rather than the staunce positions, falsehoods, and accusations.

So, can we start with application of strict scrutiny as justification for infringing upon natural/constitutionally protected rights? i.e. the infringement must:

1. Address a compelling government interest
2. Be narrowly tailored to address that interest (i.e. not overbroad)
3. Be the least restrictive means to achieve that interest

Is that a reasonable starting point?

 

[chipbennett]

Whatever. But I am disappointed. You know better.

asymptomatic

adjective

asymp·​tom·​at·​ic | \ ˌā-ˌsim(p)-tə-ˈma-tik
Definition of asymptomatic

: not causing, marked by, or presenting with signs or symptoms of infection, illness, or disease

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/asymptomatic

I'm not going to debate you on this. Argumentum ad dictionarium logical fallacy isn't going to change my mind.

 

[chipbennett]

So now government is in the position of guaranteeing a living wage to restaurant owners? Superceding public health?

Those capacity limits are set by the state anyway, so would not changing them also be within the state jurisdictional?

Holy straw man, Batman.

How did we get from government not constraining/compelling business decisions/practices by business owners to government guaranteeing the viability/success of those businesses?

 

[T.Lex]

Holy straw man, Batman.

How did we get from government not constraining/compelling business decisions/practices by business owners to government guaranteeing the viability/success of those businesses?

You brought it up. Government starts out constraining restaurants - zoning, health department, licensing stuff, etc. That's why I brought it up.

If it starts out as a .gov regulated business, what "essential liberty" is given up when the health department says that the prior decision on maximum capacity is too much?

 

[BugI02]

What does it say about the people's perception of the deadliness of this disease and the perceived effectiveness of the mitigation that some feel the need to talk about forcing the unwilling to comply. Seems if it was really the Red Death that they would do so voluntarily because it made sense

It seems so much more like 'I need to be able to make you do what makes me feel safe'. Gun control by another name

 

[printcraft]

You brought it up. Government starts out constraining restaurants - zoning, health department, licensing stuff, etc. That's why I brought it up.

If it starts out as a .gov regulated business, what "essential liberty" is given up when the health department says that the prior decision on maximum capacity is too much?

The original limit was/is an infringement. The fact that they can make it zero for pretty much any reason they desire is a serious problem.

 

[foszoe]

That has always been my position. When a store, or my church, airlines, a work client, etc. requires a mask, I wear a mask without complaint.

The line for me is state mandating of mask wearing and/or compelling businesses to engage in sub-optimal business practices as determined by the business owners.

Some hold the position the mask does nothing.
Others believe masks are helpful but should not be mandated.
Others believe masks are harmful.
Others say masks are helpful and shoul be mandatory

I don't know if anyone here falls in the last category

 

[BugI02]

You brought it up. Government starts out constraining restaurants - zoning, health department, licensing stuff, etc. That's why I brought it up.

If it starts out as a .gov regulated business, what "essential liberty" is given up when the health department says that the prior decision on maximum capacity is too much?

I'm thinking numbers 2 and 3

1. Address a compelling government interest
2. Be narrowly tailored to address that interest (i.e. not overbroad)
3. Be the least restrictive means to achieve that interest

 

[nonobaddog]

I'm not going to debate you on this. Argumentum ad dictionarium logical fallacy isn't going to change my mind.

And bastardizing the definition of a scientific staple word like asymptomatic is very poor science and would not get through peer review or be published.

 

[foszoe]

The original limit was/is an infringement. The fact that they can make it zero for pretty much any reason they desire is a serious problem.

Infringement sure, I can agree with that, but when you get a business license from the government, you are agreeing to their rules.