Average Firefight Rounds

[Jackson]

There was a study conducted on this site SOMEWHERE that I have been unable to find since. It was by an instructor if I remember correctly and in his study he cited documented LE and defense shootings.

He broke out the numbers based on how many shots it took to stop the threat across what types of guns/calibers, how many were actually "one shot stops", and their effective percentages. I remember that between handguns there was little to no difference. Shotguns outperformed BY FAR in terms of "one shot stops," but nearly all of the handgun shootings required multiple shots.

I've looked and looked and I have been unable to find it. It was several months back. If you find it post it back here please.

I think you are talking about Tom Givens of Rangemaster. He has done some research like this, I think.

 

[Jackson]

Right now i have 8 30Round PMags. With 15 on backorder. I have several holsters so i could carry maybe 4 hand guns. I'd take a back pack or something for all the stuff, but will eventually get a chest rig etc so i could have everything on me.

What kind of situation are you preparing for? If you are talking about a home invasion, when are you ever going to put all this crap on? You'll be lucky if you've got pants when it goes down. Get a small bag and put some medical gear, a cell phone, and a couple extra pistol magazines in it. Keeping a rifle with a couple magazines close by is a good idea too, if you can get to it.Get some training on how to use the pistol/rifle and the medical gear. Then make a plan for what you and your family will do, where in the house you will go, and who will do what when the front door gets kicked off its hinges. This small bag, solid training, and a workable/flexible plan will get you a whole lot further than 350 rounds of pistol ammo stacked in magazines in the closet.

If you're talking about some armed and organized group besieging your house after the end of the world, you'll be in the same boat unless you wear your gear all the time and/or you see them coming a long way off. Either way, carrying four handguns will be about as useful to you as carrying one. You'll need a good rifle, a proper kit, and a small team to back you up. It will be a whole 'nother ballgame.

Of the two scenarios, the top one is about a bajillion times more likely. Start preparing for that one. The training, preparation, and planning to approach that situation can be scaled up to approach the second situation. Though you'll probably never need it to do so.

I find it best to approach my training and preparation in the context of what I am likely to encounter. That's just me.

 

[Jackson]

And a small, powerful, reliable flashlight. I forgot to add that.

What kind of situation are you preparing for? If you are talking about a home invasion, when are you ever going to put all this crap on? You'll be lucky if you've got pants when it goes down. Get a small bag and put some medical gear, a cell phone, and a couple extra pistol magazines in it. Keeping a rifle with a couple magazines close by is a good idea too, if you can get to it.Get some training on how to use the pistol/rifle and the medical gear. Then make a plan for what you and your family will do, where in the house you will go, and who will do what when the front door gets kicked off its hinges. This small bag, solid training, and a workable/flexible plan will get you a whole lot further than 350 rounds of pistol ammo stacked in magazines in the closet.

If you're talking about some armed and organized group besieging your house after the end of the world, you'll be in the same boat unless you wear your gear all the time and/or you see them coming a long way off. Either way, carrying four handguns will be about as useful to you as carrying one. You'll need a good rifle, a proper kit, and a small team to back you up. It will be a whole 'nother ballgame.

Of the two scenarios, the top one is about a bajillion times more likely. Start preparing for that one. The training, preparation, and planning to approach that situation can be scaled up to approach the second situation. Though you'll probably never need it to do so.

I find it best to approach my training and preparation in the context of what I am likely to encounter. That's just me.

 

[cosermann]

And a small, powerful, reliable flashlight. I forgot to add that.

Must have a light.

 

[Cerberus]

As a general rule I like to have on hand 10 mags per rifle and 5 per handgun as a minimum.

 

[Tandem160]

Here's a excellent web site for "firefight" statistics. Believe them or not and I'm agree that ALL of you are much better shoots than these guys were.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

 

[SSGSAD]

As far as the "gunfight" weather civilian, or police, I read some time ago, that the "average", was less than 10 rounds fired.
Now when you look at "happening" like Miami Dade, that is a whole different sit.....

 

[the1kidd03]

I think you are talking about Tom Givens of Rangemaster. He has done some research like this, I think.

No, post #18 was what I was thinking of. It's been posted here before but I found it interesting to see how little of difference in effectiveness there was between the most popular handgun calibers. Then to check handguns across the effectiveness of the shotgun/rifle.

Only 1800 in this independent study, but I haven't seen contradictory evidence and it's not like people have the time/money to throw at researching nationwide numbers like Mr. Ayoob did all those years.

 

[indiucky]

"they exited out the front door..They had no idea what they were in for.." Language warning.....


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsuH1msEkvM[/ame]

 

[Jackson]

No, post #18 was what I was thinking of. It's been posted here before but I found it interesting to see how little of difference in effectiveness there was between the most popular handgun calibers. Then to check handguns across the effectiveness of the shotgun/rifle.

Yep. Shot placement is everything. A 0.1" (.355 vs .45) difference in the diameter of a wound cavity isn't going to make a difference when it doesn't imact any immiedately-vital organs or the nervous system.

Rifles and shotguns are a whole 'nother ballgame factoring in fragmentation and having enough energy to send pieces of your bones out the other side of your body.

 

[cosermann]

It is true that good shot placement is vitally important, but it isn't the only factor in producing a reliably effective wound (although it is probably the most important factor).

While shot placement is a critical factor in producing an effective wound, so is bullet performance. They are independent variables, and both are necessary to produce an effective wound.

For example, a shot may have perfect placement on the target, and yet the bullet fails to perform adequately (i.e. fails to penetrate to vital structures, glances off bone, etc.) - producing an ineffective wound.

It is a bullet's performance, especially penetration, that makes good shot placement effective. In other words, the bullet has to do its job once it arrives at a proper spot on the target.



References:
"Shot placement is an important, and often cited, consideration regarding the suitability of weapons and ammunition. However, considerations of caliber are equally important and cannot be ignored." [1]

[1] - http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

"... 'effectiveness' is a consequence of the bullet's wound track through the body. Shot placement is a critical aspect in producing an effective wound, and this factor is entirely independent of, and is more important than, any attribute that can be ascribed to bullet performance, except penetration. To reliably be "effective" a bullet must pass through vital cardiovascular organs or damage the central nervous system. The key words are reliable effectiveness." [2]

[2] - Too Good to be True, Wishful Thinking?, The Best Defense

 

[Jackson]

It is true that good shot placement is vitally important, but it isn't the only factor in producing a reliably effective wound (although it is probably the most important factor).

While shot placement is a critical factor in producing an effective wound, so is bullet performance. They are independent variables, and both are necessary to produce an effective wound.

For example, a shot may have perfect placement on the target, and yet the bullet fails to perform adequately (i.e. fails to penetrate to vital structures, glances off bone, etc.) - producing an ineffective wound.

It is a bullet's performance, especially penetration, that makes good shot placement effective. In other words, the bullet has to do its job once it arrives at a proper spot on the target.



References:
"Shot placement is an important, and often cited, consideration regarding the suitability of weapons and ammunition. However, considerations of caliber are equally important and cannot be ignored." [1]

[1] - http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

"... 'effectiveness' is a consequence of the bullet's wound track through the body. Shot placement is a critical aspect in producing an effective wound, and this factor is entirely independent of, and is more important than, any attribute that can be ascribed to bullet performance, except penetration. To reliably be "effective" a bullet must pass through vital cardiovascular organs or damage the central nervous system. The key words are reliable effectiveness." [2]

[2] - Too Good to be True, Wishful Thinking?, The Best Defense

Agreed. Good post.

 

[looney2ns]

I don't carry the 350 outside the range or house. I only have 2 clips of 15ea during conceal carry. Maybe i'm just too paranoid about home situations or overthinking things. I do have an "AR", so yes, i could find that. I never been in one of those situations, just thinking of possible civil unrest type of senarios.

I think you will find that those "clips" will not work in your Glock.