AR-15 accuracy with bulk ammo

[Ark]

Meh. Wolf has been my go-to in the past, and when focused I got 1.5-2.5" groups zeroing at 50. Good enough for government work, as the saying goes. I'd expect tighter with high magnification, better rest, and a good high contrast target, followed by better ammo.

If you've ever shot groups with 3-5 brands of ammo in the same sitting, you know it's hard to standardize on ammo because some rifles just plum don't like X brand. But if you can squeeze 3-4 MOA and center it consistently in your zero, far as I'm concerned you're good to go.

Yes, tight groups help a lot, but in the real world you accquire target and you shoot and shoot until you receive hit feedback. Real targets aren't paper.

 

[ntrngr]

What kind of accuracy are you guys getting with your AR running bulk ammo?

Went out and shot this week at some longer ranges the accuracy I was getting out of bulk PMC 223 was what I would consider less than acceptable.

I've done a lot of experimentation in ARs, Mini-14s and bolt guns using 5.56 bulk ammo. (Save the speech about 5.56 in 223 chambers. I proved it fiction 30 years ago.) What I found is that most bulk ammo M193ish (55gr FMJ) works well in all types rifles. The only real fly in the ointment I found was that M855 appears to not be nearly as accurate across the board. It wasn't a big problem, like 1.5 (for M193) to 2.5 (M855) in some of the bolt guns and just under 4 with scoped, standard ARs (Palmetto, S&W and Bushmaster). I did have a Savage Axis in 223 that opened way up (like 8 MOA) using M855. I was worried about over-pressure or some type of problems but head expansion and primer forging showed nothing out of the ordinary. The gun just didn't like M855. I never checked, maybe it was a slower twist. (But, it sure did like the M193 stuff.) Embarassingly the M193 like stuff shot very nearly as tight as my best handloads, at least in some of the bolt guns. I'm always disapointed with ARs and accuracy. I've got a couple target triggered 20" heavier than normal barreled ARs. 1.5 MOA is it. Bolt guns with the same ammo: .75 MOA. The thing about the long barreled ARs is that you can run ammo through it for hours at a time and its so hot you could fry and egg on it and it will stay under 2 MOA. The bolt guns, heck, you do more that five rounds in 3 minutes and it goes from .75 MOA to 3 MOA.

I would not take these results as gospel since I have only run them twice. I did have identical results each time, however, I need to run them a third time to be absolutely sure, at least on paper.

In my head I see a standard AR as a 3 MOA rifle. I see a floating hand guard AR as a 2 MOA rifle. Add to that a longer barrel and a target trigger and thats gonna get you close to 1 MOA and, if you're lucky, sub-MOA.

Hope this helps.

NOTE: Notice I never mentioned the Mini-14s. I love my Minis. I love how they handle, how they operate. I've got two stainless ones. They're beautiful. Function perfectly. ...and they won't hit the side of a barn. 2" groups (on a good day) at 50yds. Its like they're cursed.

 

[ntrngr]

Meh. Wolf has been my go-to in the past, and when focused I got 1.5-2.5" groups zeroing at 50. Good enough for government work, as the saying goes. I'd expect tighter with high magnification, better rest, and a good high contrast target, followed by better ammo.

If you've ever shot groups with 3-5 brands of ammo in the same sitting, you know it's hard to standardize on ammo because some rifles just plum don't like X brand. But if you can squeeze 3-4 MOA and center it consistently in your zero, far as I'm concerned you're good to go.

Yes, tight groups help a lot, but in the real world you accquire target and you shoot and shoot until you receive hit feedback. Real targets aren't paper.

All true, and I agree. Great advice for the targets of which you speak. But, some targets, you only get one shot. Imagine a softball sized target at 200 yards. You shoot and miss and you will never get another chance. You get one shot. I would really love to use an AR for that. So far, I'm right on the edge at 1.5 MOA.

But, I am off subject, again. Sorry OP.

 

[Creedmoor]

I've done a lot of experimentation in ARs, Mini-14s and bolt guns using 5.56 bulk ammo. (Save the speech about 5.56 in 223 chambers. I proved it fiction 30 years ago.) What I found is that most bulk ammo M193ish (55gr FMJ) works well in all types rifles. The only real fly in the ointment I found was that M855 appears to not be nearly as accurate across the board. It wasn't a big problem, like 1.5 (for M193) to 2.5 (M855) in some of the bolt guns and just under 4 with scoped, standard ARs (Palmetto, S&W and Bushmaster).

Its always amazed me how everyday, Marines around the World qualify Expert out to 500 yards using M855 ammo through 16" M4's with a 4 power ACOG.

 

[Ark]

Its always amazed me how everyday, Marines around the World qualify Expert out to 500 yards using M855 ammo through 16" M4's with a 4 power ACOG.

The targets are big.

Military benefits from one single ammunition type and generally one single rifle type. So when you have an optic designed for that and a nice high visibility target it's really not that hard. You still need fundamentals, but there's no reason not to get 500 yard hits with everything in your favor. If you can shoot 3 moa thats a 15 inch circle.

 

[Creedmoor]

The targets are big.

Military benefits from one single ammunition type and generally one single rifle type. So when you have an optic designed for that and a nice high visibility target it's really not that hard. You still need fundamentals, but there's no reason not to get 500 yard hits with everything in your favor. If you can shoot 3 moa thats a 15 inch circle.

The targets are big at 500.
But Not as big as those who qual to 300

And yea, my post you quoted should have been in purple.
My #2 after his first grass week and qual shooting upper 330's in a letter home said.

Dad shooting with a scope I felt like I was cheating.
He grew up shooting High Power.

 

[DadSmith]

The only Russian ammunition I had decent accuracy with was 62gr Wolf Military Classic. The rest were horrible. The above ammunition shot better in my rifles than M855 or M193.

 

[Creedmoor]

The only Russian ammunition I had decent accuracy with was 62gr Wolf Military Classic. The rest were horrible. The above ammunition shot better in my rifles than M855 or M193.

And it makes me wonder why?
Bullet design? Powder?

 

[DadSmith]

And it makes me wonder why?
Bullet design? Powder?

I'm not sure if I have any left if I find one I'll pull the bullet and check it out.

 

[Creedmoor]

I'm not sure if I have any left if I find one I'll pull the bullet and check it out.

Ok, what twist is the AR?
I ask because my PSS in 223 is a 1-9" and with M855 it will lose yaw and tumble 30' - 40' down range. Funniest thing ever, bullets hitting grass, five ft left, five ft right, five ft above the target. Your like wtf is going on?
You could see when it happened from the distortion in the air

69 SMK's 1/2 moa, steel core 12' moa, it doesent like the length of those steel cores.

 

[DadSmith]

Ok, what twist is the AR?
I ask because my PSS in 223 is a 1-9" and with M855 it will lose yaw and tumble 30' - 40' down range. Funniest thing ever, bullets hitting grass, five ft left, five ft right, five ft above the target. Your like wtf is going on?
You could see when it happened from the distortion in the air

69 SMK's 1/2 moa, steel core 12' moa, it doesent like the length of those steel cores.

All of mine are 1-8 twist and they prefer 75-77gr I usually feed them 75gr Speer and Hornady bullets reloads.
I also found that Fiocchi 55gr FMJBT 223 ammunition in the Green 50rd box did very good in them shooting under MOA.


Edit:
I believe the 1-9 is better with 55gr and under. It's more for light weight varmint bullets. Some report they have shot heavier bullets sub moa which is weird because 1-9 isn't really rated for over 62gr IIRC.

My rifles usually hate 62gr and under. That's why I thought it was great they shot Fiocchi 55gr so well.

 

[Creedmoor]

All of mine are 1-8 twist and they prefer 75-77gr I usually feed them 75gr Speer and Hornady bullets reloads.
I also found that Fiocchi 55gr FMJBT 223 ammunition in the Green 50rd box did very good in them shooting under MOA.

I believe the 1-9 is better with 55gr and under. It's more for light weight varmint bullets.

Thanks, It gets interesting sometimes for sure.
Ive pondered getting it rebarreled prematurely to a 1"-7" so I can go to 75-77 grainers. 1-9 is kinna of a limbo twist, it was popular when bigger longer bullets were just making the scene. And yes, vermin twist for the most part.
I have a Cooper thats 1" - 12" its a 40-52 grain laser.

 

[DadSmith]

Thanks, It gets interesting sometimes for sure.
Ive pondered getting it rebarreled prematurely to a 1"-7" so I can go to 75-77 grainers. 1-9 is kinna of a limbo twist, it was popular when bigger longer bullets were just making the scene. And yes, vermin twist for the most part.
I have a Cooper thats 1" - 12" its a 40-52 grain laser.

Yeah 1-7 is definitely better with 70gr even upto 90gr. I don't know why the military picked it and used such light weight bullets.
If the military had been using 75gr FMJBT they would not have had any need for SS109/M855. 75gr has much better penetration. For Armor penetration just add a steel core to it.

 

[Goodcat]

It’s not so much bulk ammo, as it is bi-metallic properties of m855, or the bullet weight of 55gr bulk Tula, PMC and the like. Even crappy BCA uppers will pattern 2 moa or under with decent ammo, 69-77gr, twist dependent. I shoot 75gr PRVI out of ARs from 11.5-18” and consistent get sub-moa results. When I roll my own, 1/2-2/3 moa.

 

[cfoster2003]

The targets are big.

Military benefits from one single ammunition type and generally one single rifle type. So when you have an optic designed for that and a nice high visibility target it's really not that hard. You still need fundamentals, but there's no reason not to get 500 yard hits with everything in your favor. If you can shoot 3 moa thats a 15 inch circle.

Hey Ark! I’m new to the forum and can’t figure out how to message you sorry for posting on this thread… I saw you had a 1733 flintlock for sale some time back- I am interested. Thanks man

 

[Creedmoor]

Hey Ark! I’m new to the forum and can’t figure out how to message you sorry for posting on this thread… I saw you had a 1733 flintlock for sale some time back- I am interested. Thanks man

You gotta have 50 posts or pay site supporter to PM or buy from the classies.

 

[cfoster2003]

You gotta have 50 posts or pay site supporter to PM or buy from the classies.

Oh, ok thanks

 

[Gingerbeardman]

I'm glad to read some rifles open up at distance. I have a dpms that was on at 250 but disappeared at 350, I thought it was just me. Ok, maybe it was... I've verified zero at 100 but haven't been back to the long range yet. Unsure what ammo I was shooting but an 18x24 target at 350 shouldn't be out of the question for any rifle with a good bore, in my opinion.

 

[Ark]

Hey Ark! I’m new to the forum and can’t figure out how to message you sorry for posting on this thread… I saw you had a 1733 flintlock for sale some time back- I am interested. Thanks man

50 post minimum for PMs and classifieds interactions.

However, that flintlock sold some time ago. Please continue to participate and learn your way around.

 

[cfoster2003]

50 post minimum for PMs and classifieds interactions.

However, that flintlock sold some time ago. Please continue to participate and learn your way around.

Thanks for the reply!