after the shooting

[redneckmedic]

Medic,

He's over in Ohio. The laws may be different there.

Guess he was a homicide detective before being injured in the line, and if the shooter was incoherent and puking on shoes, they would take him to the hospital for evaluation and possible tranquilizers.

Policy dictated that they could then not be questioned for 24 hours (at least) afterward.

My statement was part question, which you answered handily: Would it be this way in Indiana?

This was also back in the '80s and I expected policy would have changed.

Josh <><

I instruct all over the mid-west basic principals of emergency medicine, with that said; protocols and M.D. orders could very well differ from county to county and most certainly from state to state for both EMS and I suppose LEO as well. But the term tranquilizers is used as a very generalized term in the word of date rape and OD's in according to Hollywood and the party scene. There is a class of medications that are referred to as tranquilizers however that is not something that EMS would use regardless to where they are practicing. I didn't mean to jump your post, as I didn't realize you where in question form. I am just tired of reading post that come off as fact when they are really just speculation.

The most important thing to remember is that as an accused criminal you have rights, one of those is the right to remain silent.


-Medic

 

[public servant]

Indeed....

Lawyer.

What happened here?

Lawyer.

We need a statement.

Lawyer.

Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

Not LE bashing but they are not there to help you out. They will not be called to testify in your defense. Say nothing until you've spoken to a lawyer.

Absolutely....keep your mouth shut and wait for your lawyer.

 

[Wabatuckian]

I instruct all over the mid-west basic principals of emergency medicine, with that said; protocols and M.D. orders could very well differ from county to county and most certainly from state to state for both EMS and I suppose LEO as well. But the term tranquilizers is used as a very generalized term in the word of date rape and OD's in according to Hollywood and the party scene. There is a class of medications that are referred to as tranquilizers however that is not something that EMS would use regardless to where they are practicing. I didn't mean to jump your post, as I didn't realize you where in question form. I am just tired of reading post that come off as fact when they are really just speculation.

The most important thing to remember is that as an accused criminal you have rights, one of those is the right to remain silent.


-Medic

It's all good.

I just have a problem asking for drugs by name - Xanax or some such in that class is what I'm guessing most folks would be given.

I believe it would be a good idea to ask to be treated medically for any injuries, in case I have one I'm not feeling due to adrenaline.

First things first:

1) Make sure I'm not injured. That means professionals like you looking me over. I have a card that says "First aid and life support for the professional rescuer," or some such stuff, but I doubt I'd be in any condition to assess myself.

2) Say "I was in fear of my life. I would like my lawyer," after requesting medical treatment.

Does this sound about right?

Thanks,

Josh <><

 

[jeremy]

Officer here is my license and ID, I need to speak to my lawyer. Sir.

 

[indyjoe]

this might be a stupid question but i have never been in the situation and would like to now what to do i have read all of your comments and it sounds like the number one thing to do is ask for a lawyer right off. but if i used self defense against a bad guy and didn't do any thing wrong because in my mind if i hadn't acted with my weapon i would have been killed then y not tell the cops what happen just wondering because if you just go off saying lawyer to the cops and not trying to help sort what happened could that make them think your trying to hid or cover up what happened just wondering thanks

You owe it to yourself to spend an hour and watch these two videos:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik]YouTube - Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE]YouTube - Don't Talk to Cops, Part 2[/ame]

 

[jeremy]

Those are 2 great videos.

On a side note you actually might want to talk to an attorney now before the shoot happens to find out what you should (not) do. Could be some really good money spent in advance.

 

[Denny347]

Those are 2 great videos.

On a side note you actually might want to talk to an attorney now before the shoot happens to find out what you should (not) do. Could be some really good money spent in advance.

Funny thing is, I'm the police and I agree with the consensus. Have an attorney AHEAD OF TIME so IF you need him/her it is nothing more than a phone call and they will meet you at the scene. How could I not endorse this advice, this is EXACTLY what we do in a police action shooting. We have our FOP attorneys that will show up to the scene. NOTHING gets asked until they are there. If it works for us, it will work for you. The key is having a lawyer lined up ahead of time.

 

[mercop]

The truth is about the situation and the aftermath is that you hope you will do what you think you will do. The truth is that after surviving something like this you may feel like you just had the best orgasm of your life, I mean after all you have spent your life training for just this situation and you are alive. The flowers smell sweeter and the sun is a little brighter. You will likely be excited and want to talk, as a matter of fact you may feel that your can't control yourself. That is why you need to separate yourself from the situation.

On another point, if you have a loved one with you they will be separated from you. They will be questioned and since they are not being questioned in reference to a specific crime they do not have to be Mirandized. Are you prepared for when it is all over and you are on the way home with your wife and ask her about her statement, to find out that it does not match up with yours...at all. Two people in the same room can have a very different perspective on the same situation. This is why we go out of our way to cover this stuff in class. The actual shooting is only one facet of a kaleidoscope. - George

Edited to add- before anyone brings us spousal privilege and the 5 Amendment what about other family, friends and girlfriends. Those are people that like you. What do you think other witnesses who don't know you will say. And if you think that two people can get a story together during the aftermath of such a situation you are kidding yourself.

 

[Disposable Heart]

From what I gathered (and experienced once, knifing) is a mixture of keep mouth shut and give BASIC information about the situation.
Not a shooting, but something I was involved in:
In Ohio, some dumbass wanted my wallet, had a knife, I gave him my knife in his thigh several times (my first mugging on campus, I gave up my wallet, no fuss, no resistance, not anymore). I pretty much said this to the police that EVENTUALLY showed up (and not adrenaline time distortion, no, it took them 10 minutes to arrive at the call box):

I was being robbed by a (description of bad dude) and I defended myself as I felt I was in danger. I need to talk to my legal representation before giving further information.

Pretty much what I said in that situation. I WAS nervous and had blood all over my hands. They let me use the bathroom to clean up, tried sweating me by the cruiser, let me spend one night in holding cell, then let me go with an apology, here's your wallet and we got the guy (who thankfully confessed to it).

Given the situation, I got lucky from what I have been told. I didn't have anyone in particular I could have called for legal rep. This leads me into my question regarding representation preparation: Is it a good idea to have someone specific to call for representation? Where do they meet you? What steps do the lawyers take at these points? I know we have a lot of lawyers on this forum! I may have to harass a few of the ones that come out the Eagle Creek! We got two at least that are tacticool barristers!

Added question: I was scared to friggin death after the action. I could barely remember what anyone was saying or asking me, thus the very nondescript above situation. Is there a mantra or paragraph we should memorize in case of these situations? Should I have a laminated or similar card that has numbers, people to contact, etc...?

 

[revance]

this might be a stupid question but i have never been in the situation and would like to now what to do i have read all of your comments and it sounds like the number one thing to do is ask for a lawyer right off. but if i used self defense against a bad guy and didn't do any thing wrong because in my mind if i hadn't acted with my weapon i would have been killed then y not tell the cops what happen just wondering because if you just go off saying lawyer to the cops and not trying to help sort what happened could that make them think your trying to hid or cover up what happened just wondering thanks

One of many reasons... cops are not lawyers. They can have the best intentions, but they still might put something in that report that can come back and bite you. Remember that you are also not a lawyer... YOU might say something that could be turned around.

A lawyer will make sure that nothing gets in that report that could be used to mean something you didn't actually say or imply.

 

[revance]

call 911 state there's been a shooting, request medical assistance and LE on site asap. Describe what your wearing so they know who called it in when they arrive.

The best part of this quote... never does it say YOU did the shooting! Remember 911 tapes are the same as talking to the police. DON'T SAY ANYTHING! You are not a lawyer, wait until one tells you how to explain what happened without giving some crazy DA fuel to prosecute you.

Again, the police may not be out to get you, but they just don't have the knowledge to prevent you from turning yourself into bait for an anti-gun DA.

 

[homeless]

Well being as you are going to be giving them your gun and describing yourself as the victim, telling them that you fired might be a good idea. However I would avoid using phrases like "Mozambeek drill" when giving a breif discription of the exchange.

Revised statement:

"Thank you for responding the my call officers! This/These Man/Men/Hooligans attacked me. I think he needs medical attention. I was in fear of my life. Here is my ID and my weapon is holstered on my hip. Would you mind taking custody of that for now? My attackers weapon is right there." Then point out shell casings or any other physical evidence. "I feel ill officer, do you mind if I sit down? I would like to cooperate fully with you as soon as I can debreif with my lawyer. Thank you for showing up. I hope he is going to be allright."
-----

Does that one sound a little better? Perhaps rather than just discussing this we should integrate some of these possible after action interviews into our force on force training. That way your statement becomes part of your automatic response.


As I mentioned doing in your 911 call, be sure to request ALS or a trauma medic. This tell the operator that you are on their said because you are using their language. Also it says that you don't have some crazy blood lust. And by telling the operator if the scene is secure or not, you are reinforcing the use of their language, and telling them that you are looking out for the medics well being. If you think that a second threat is likely to present itself then tell the operator and ask for multiple LEO to show up asap and for ALS to stand by. And being as we are all responsible by using JHP that will not overpenetrate, you might want to tell EMS of that fact. Advising them of the type and calibur and how many entry and exit would you believe the perp to have would not be a bad idea. These are guys who might be asked to tetstify as to your mental state and character later. The reverse of that coin is that they will tell the court every thing that you said good and bad. So don't say anything stupid. When talking to EMS keep it impersonal, use terms like "the patient".

It would seem to me, that it would be understandable to not provide any aid to the perp before any one arrives. I don't like the idea of getting withing arms distance of someone I just shot. I would think it best to secure the scene until the arrival of LEO and then turn the scene over to them. However if their are any other VICTIMS there (any bystanders that got hit) let 911 and EMS know to bring multiple units, and give them a discription of each. I would say it might be a good idea to check for vitals on any other victims and let 911 know what they are. Then after securing the scene and you feel safe that no more tangos are showing up, give what ever aid you can to the other victims, but also keep an eye of the bad guys who may or may not be dead.


Again I am not a lawyer and I don't know what I am talking about, ever.

 

[misconfig]

Don't forget to make vomit sounds while on the phone with 911.

"He was going to KILL ME!, I had to defend myself"
BAAAAAAAAAAAARRRFFFF

 

[JosephR]

Interesting. . . .

That's nothing a battery-pull and cold reboot of my blackberry can't fix, right?

 

[CountryBoy19]

Sorry, I must admit that I didn't read the whole thread, but I will post these two very helpful links. These are longer, but I've watched them several times and I occasionally watch them to remind myself. 2 part video, first is a law professor, 2nd part is an officer.
Never talk to the police part 1: [ame=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865]"Don't Talk to the Police" by Professor James Duane[/ame]
Never talk to the police part 2: [ame=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912]"Don't Talk to the Police" by Officer George Bruch[/ame]

 

[JosephR]

Actually I will add this-

No need for a battery pull on the Blackberry. Had to call 911 after an a-hole hit me while on the Duc and fled the scene. When I tried to dial a second number, it asked me "do you want to exit and disable the quick redial feature in the event of an emergency?" so I hit yes and dialed the second number...