9mm, .40, .45 what's the BEST

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  • Hohn

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 5, 2012
    4,445
    63
    USA
    The conventional wisdom that the larger hole of the .45 does more damage is a myth. Bullet holes don't stay holes. You ever seen an actual gunshot entry? Does it look like punched paper? No. They are filled with tissue, clots, etc.

    And the 5.56 has tiny little entrance holes in some cases. Is it inferior to the .45 for personal defense?

    Since we've established the entrance hole size is irrelevant, we can move to things that matter. Most of the people that "bleed out" and die from a gsw are actually bleeding in-- it's not the blood they lost through the entrance or exit hole, is the blood floating around inside them that caused them to die.

    A bullet has a simple task-- produce sufficient damage to critical tissue that the attacker cannot continue attacking.


    Handgun bullets, unfortunately, can really only crush tissue. This is incredibly inefficient and why an arrow and broadhead with not even 100lb-ft is adequate for hunting, while a 9mm with triple that energy is not. Broadheads cut and use the energy efficiently. Bullets don't use that energy efficiently.

    Why it crushing and not stretching tissue the only real valid wound mechanism? Most HG rounds are too slow to generate enough stress to damage organs by stretching. Hydrostatic shock is mostly a rifle phenomenon, not a handgun phenomenon (although some .357 loads from a 6" barrel will get you in that neighborhood). This is why that high shoulder shot on your deer just folds them like a cheap suit even when it missed the lungs and heart-- that deer round is fast enough for remote wounding effects. (CNS/spinal damage to the deer in this case).


    Because they are so inefficient, even non-trivial differences between calibers would produce small differences in terminal performance. There's very little observable terminal difference between a 9mm at 320lb ft, a .45 at .450 lb-ft, and even a hot .357 sig at 500lb-ft.


    Pick whichever caliber you like best, but don't pretend it's some kind of magic wand that can make up for your poor marksmanship, lack of preparation, or poor awareness. Your old and crusty "Carry ammo" that you've kept in circulation for 4 years isn't immune to deterioration just because its a .45 and .45s are perfect.

    If we only cared about the having the very best all-around terminal ballistics on a compact autoloader, we'd all be carrying .357 Sig. It's ballistically the best of major autoloading duty calibers, both in internal ballistics, external ballistics, and terminal ballistics.

    But it's expensive and breaks guns. Is it worth the wear and tear and cost to have a tiny sliver more performance over +P+ 9mm? Probably not.

    40SW is truly the middle child. Poor thing. Because it gives you some of each, it's hated by both for its lack of purity. Like a person in the middle that neither Republicans or Democrats can tolerate.

    I'll let you in on a secret: handload that 180gr .40sw down to 800fps like a 230gr .45. You will LOVE shooting your .40, the snap is entirely gone.

    The mistake of the .40SW was marketing it as a larger 9mm rather than a shrunk down .45. Drop the pressure and the cartridge totally transforms. Penetration goes up (less JHP expansion), shootability goes up. Less wear/tear on gun.


    I carry 9mm, I like 40SW, and will never own a .45 for anything but a range toy or sentimentality. It's simply obsolete in my view because the capacity reduction is too large compared to the TINY performance advantage-- if any. The slow speed has serious handicaps at times.
     

    phylodog

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    59   0   0
    Mar 7, 2008
    19,673
    113
    Arcadia
    Yawn......


    Got a handgun round pushing 2200FPS yet? No? Then shot placement is everything on top of everything, covered in everything and slathered with everything. The rest is completely insignificant posturing BS.
     

    Dead Duck

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    53   0   0
    Apr 1, 2011
    14,062
    113
    .
    3xxkGzt.jpg
     

    Amishman44

    Master
    Rating - 98.2%
    54   1   0
    Dec 30, 2009
    3,898
    113
    Woodburn
    The conventional wisdom that the larger hole of the .45 does more damage is a myth. Bullet holes don't stay holes. You ever seen an actual gunshot entry? Does it look like punched paper? No. They are filled with tissue, clots, etc.

    And the 5.56 has tiny little entrance holes in some cases. Is it inferior to the .45 for personal defense?

    Since we've established the entrance hole size is irrelevant, we can move to things that matter. Most of the people that "bleed out" and die from a gsw are actually bleeding in-- it's not the blood they lost through the entrance or exit hole, is the blood floating around inside them that caused them to die.

    A bullet has a simple task-- produce sufficient damage to critical tissue that the attacker cannot continue attacking.


    Handgun bullets, unfortunately, can really only crush tissue. This is incredibly inefficient and why an arrow and broadhead with not even 100lb-ft is adequate for hunting, while a 9mm with triple that energy is not. Broadheads cut and use the energy efficiently. Bullets don't use that energy efficiently.

    Why it crushing and not stretching tissue the only real valid wound mechanism? Most HG rounds are too slow to generate enough stress to damage organs by stretching. Hydrostatic shock is mostly a rifle phenomenon, not a handgun phenomenon (although some .357 loads from a 6" barrel will get you in that neighborhood). This is why that high shoulder shot on your deer just folds them like a cheap suit even when it missed the lungs and heart-- that deer round is fast enough for remote wounding effects. (CNS/spinal damage to the deer in this case).


    Because they are so inefficient, even non-trivial differences between calibers would produce small differences in terminal performance. There's very little observable terminal difference between a 9mm at 320lb ft, a .45 at .450 lb-ft, and even a hot .357 sig at 500lb-ft.


    Pick whichever caliber you like best, but don't pretend it's some kind of magic wand that can make up for your poor marksmanship, lack of preparation, or poor awareness. Your old and crusty "Carry ammo" that you've kept in circulation for 4 years isn't immune to deterioration just because its a .45 and .45s are perfect.

    If we only cared about the having the very best all-around terminal ballistics on a compact autoloader, we'd all be carrying .357 Sig. It's ballistically the best of major autoloading duty calibers, both in internal ballistics, external ballistics, and terminal ballistics.

    But it's expensive and breaks guns. Is it worth the wear and tear and cost to have a tiny sliver more performance over +P+ 9mm? Probably not.

    40SW is truly the middle child. Poor thing. Because it gives you some of each, it's hated by both for its lack of purity. Like a person in the middle that neither Republicans or Democrats can tolerate.

    I'll let you in on a secret: handload that 180gr .40sw down to 800fps like a 230gr .45. You will LOVE shooting your .40, the snap is entirely gone.

    The mistake of the .40SW was marketing it as a larger 9mm rather than a shrunk down .45. Drop the pressure and the cartridge totally transforms. Penetration goes up (less JHP expansion), shootability goes up. Less wear/tear on gun.


    I carry 9mm, I like 40SW, and will never own a .45 for anything but a range toy or sentimentality. It's simply obsolete in my view because the capacity reduction is too large compared to the TINY performance advantage-- if any. The slow speed has serious handicaps at times.


    Incapacitating wound...is the key to stopping an active and imminent threat to one's well-being!
     

    ashby koss

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    18   0   0
    Jan 24, 2013
    1,168
    48
    Connersville
    here is the way i see it.

    We more or less agree that;

    1) all handgun calibers suck
    2) shot placement matters most
    3) hollow points can fail to expand
    4) with top shelf ammo 9=40=45 etc, etc...

    Now the caveat to me is that #3, hollow points can fail to expand. So hedging all bets between buttons, zippers, space & time anomalies, 45acp if ALL things fail is a better performer.

    In other words if $&%^ hits the fan, and my rounds fail to expand and my placement is sub par, which if i have to shoot my luck is already gone, in a worst case scenario 45 is better in FMJ situations than 9mm, in the best case scenario everything goes according to plan, things expand perfectly and my 45 rounds will perform just as good as those top shelf 9mm.

    I would rather bet on 45acp and failures, then on the 9mm with no failures or wiggle room. (ie; if i could bet on the horses that lose the race, i'd still sometimes lose. But let me bet on the track to win every-time and ill be far richer)


    edit: this does not apply to 357 mag or 44 mag. Those are a breed different.. and i dont own a Coonan.... perhaps a poly 1.5# 4" compact chambered in 5.56?
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    26,288
    113
    Ripley County
    What in your "opinion" is the best defensive handgun round?
    9mm
    .40
    .45

    Inquiring minds want to know!:dunno:

    The one that you can shot the best.
    A guide killed a brown bear with a 9mm and buffalo bore hard cast not to long ago. So with the right bullet for the job anything will work if you can handle it.
    I say shoot them all then decide. When I get 90 I'll probably be carrying a 22lr lol.
     

    9MillSBR

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Jun 24, 2012
    67
    8
    Indianapolis, IN
    Whatever caliber you prefer.

    However, I tend to notice .45 carriers do not shoot them alot, and IMO practice makes perfect. Be competent with your platform whether it be 9mm, .45 or .40.

    9MM for me works best in all spectrums. And I shoot ALOT

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
     

    Jin

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    37   0   0
    May 20, 2019
    252
    12
    Salamonie
    I prefer 9mm

    It holds more rounds

    It seems like it’s effective per experts, ballistic gel, stuff on the internets

    It’s cheap to shoot

    It’s easy to shoot for me relative to 40, I still like 45 as the impulse is pretty soft.

    I miss the least with it


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    doddg

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    138   0   1
    May 15, 2017
    8,776
    77
    Indianapolis
    The conventional wisdom that the larger hole of the .45 does more damage is a myth. Bullet holes don't stay holes. You ever seen an actual gunshot entry? Does it look like punched paper? No. They are filled with tissue, clots, etc.

    And the 5.56 has tiny little entrance holes in some cases. Is it inferior to the .45 for personal defense?

    Since we've established the entrance hole size is irrelevant, we can move to things that matter. Most of the people that "bleed out" and die from a gsw are actually bleeding in-- it's not the blood they lost through the entrance or exit hole, is the blood floating around inside them that caused them to die.

    A bullet has a simple task-- produce sufficient damage to critical tissue that the attacker cannot continue attacking.


    Handgun bullets, unfortunately, can really only crush tissue. This is incredibly inefficient and why an arrow and broadhead with not even 100lb-ft is adequate for hunting, while a 9mm with triple that energy is not. Broadheads cut and use the energy efficiently. Bullets don't use that energy efficiently.

    Why it crushing and not stretching tissue the only real valid wound mechanism? Most HG rounds are too slow to generate enough stress to damage organs by stretching. Hydrostatic shock is mostly a rifle phenomenon, not a handgun phenomenon (although some .357 loads from a 6" barrel will get you in that neighborhood). This is why that high shoulder shot on your deer just folds them like a cheap suit even when it missed the lungs and heart-- that deer round is fast enough for remote wounding effects. (CNS/spinal damage to the deer in this case).


    Because they are so inefficient, even non-trivial differences between calibers would produce small differences in terminal performance. There's very little observable terminal difference between a 9mm at 320lb ft, a .45 at .450 lb-ft, and even a hot .357 sig at 500lb-ft.


    Pick whichever caliber you like best, but don't pretend it's some kind of magic wand that can make up for your poor marksmanship, lack of preparation, or poor awareness. Your old and crusty "Carry ammo" that you've kept in circulation for 4 years isn't immune to deterioration just because its a .45 and .45s are perfect.

    If we only cared about the having the very best all-around terminal ballistics on a compact autoloader, we'd all be carrying .357 Sig. It's ballistically the best of major autoloading duty calibers, both in internal ballistics, external ballistics, and terminal ballistics.

    But it's expensive and breaks guns. Is it worth the wear and tear and cost to have a tiny sliver more performance over +P+ 9mm? Probably not.

    40SW is truly the middle child. Poor thing. Because it gives you some of each, it's hated by both for its lack of purity. Like a person in the middle that neither Republicans or Democrats can tolerate.

    I'll let you in on a secret: handload that 180gr .40sw down to 800fps like a 230gr .45. You will LOVE shooting your .40, the snap is entirely gone.

    The mistake of the .40SW was marketing it as a larger 9mm rather than a shrunk down .45. Drop the pressure and the cartridge totally transforms. Penetration goes up (less JHP expansion), shootability goes up. Less wear/tear on gun.


    I carry 9mm, I like 40SW, and will never own a .45 for anything but a range toy or sentimentality. It's simply obsolete in my view because the capacity reduction is too large compared to the TINY performance advantage-- if any. The slow speed has serious handicaps at times.


    Thanks for your time writing this post! :thumbsup:
    As someone who always reads articles about this for educational purposes, it is as good as anything I've read on the subject.
    It is a very good mix of technical info laid out simply, enough for a person who has no dog in the fight and just looking for truth.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    26,288
    113
    Ripley County
    Kind of like the debate my buddies and I were having around the campfire. Except we included the 22lr as well and we were talking about what will kill a deer. After end of the debate we concluded that with proper marksmanship a deer can be killed even with a 22lr hit to the temple or eye of a deer. So it's all about marksmanship.
     

    Brad69

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 16, 2016
    5,604
    77
    Perry county
    I have witnessed deer shot in the chest with a 22 LR expire.

    Some of you need to man up and step up the 10mm !

    You never know if or when the American Bison will retake Indiana you need to be prepared.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    26,288
    113
    Ripley County
    I have witnessed deer shot in the chest with a 22 LR expire.

    Some of you need to man up and step up the 10mm !

    You never know if or when the American Bison will retake Indiana you need to be prepared.

    Have a Glock 20SF. Them 200gr WFNGC bullets going 1257fps have some serious power.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    I have witnessed deer shot in the chest with a 22 LR expire.

    Some of you need to man up and step up the 10mm !

    You never know if or when the American Bison will retake Indiana you need to be prepared.

    I was getting prepared to type this up about a 10mm and take the heat from the limp wrist girly boys who think 40 is a rough caliber to shoot.


    Sissy's.......:):
     
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