5.45x39: Pros and cons?

[Clay]

Looking around at ammo over the last few days and Ive noticed the availability of 5.45x39 ammo, as well as the price.

I know its available in my two favorite rifle platforms, the ar15 and AK variants, that aside what are some pros and cons of this ammo? Is there a reason to add just another rifle caliber to what I have now (.22, .223, 7.62 -x39 & x54r)?

thanks,
clay

 

[Wabatuckian]

The Russians developed this round after seeing the effects of the 5.56x45mm in Vietnam.

The bullet has a clapper in it that moves forward upon impact, turning the bullet into a buzz saw.

Hardly any recoil.

There's a reason the Afghans called them "poison bullets" when Russia was there.

Then again, 7.62x39mm, esp Wolf, has a hollow nose which does much the same thing, in a larger caliber.

No, I don't think there's a reason to add another caliber, esp since the 5.45 stuff has been getting increasingly harder to find, and I'm aware of no domestic manufacturers.

On the other hand, I think the AK variants which fire them are beautiful. I was looking at buying one and converting it to 7.62x39mm. Dunno how legal that would be though.

Josh <><

 

[fireball168]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ith_and_wesson_m_and_p-15_in_5_45_x_39mm.html


Recoil is comparable to the 223, as you have the same weight projectile moving at comparable velocities.


S&W's "Eastern Bloc" AR

Pay particular attention to the bore and groove diameters on the S&W upper, may play hell in a few years if the surplus dries up and the ammo is built to CIP spec.

 

[smokingman]

The ballistics compare with 223. If you are already shooting 7.62x39 why down grade :P ?

 

[Disposable Heart]

Cons first: Ammo availability is an issue. While abundant now, it may not be for longer. When the 80s and 90s milsurp is gone, its gone. Its only a lack of the weapons firing it that is keeping the ammo price down with 5.45x39 (low demand, low pricing in high supply environments).
The AKs that fire it use mainly Bakelite mags, which are brittle. You would be better to get AK mags that are metal. The AR mags used to be an issue (unreliable as folks were modifying 5.56 mags) are now reliable with dedicated mags for 5.45, but availability may be an issue (right now at least).
The current supply of 5.45x39 is corrosive, while not a huge issue, it is a longevity issue. While people claim up and down that the AK and the S&W MP resists corrosion, it WILL eat your weapon up if not correctly maintained. Very few manufacturers make non corrosive 5.45.
Cheaply made CAI rifles had issues with barrel twist. There are few bullet weights available. The CAI had an oversized bore and improper twist rate to fire the available ammo, so be careful when purchasing the gun, always know your twist rate (plan ammo consumption accordingly) and report any issues to the manufacturer.

Pros:
Most if not all AKs made in this caliber are generally (according to shooters) more accurate than their 7.62 counterparts. Barrel thickness and better QC is key to this.
The ammo NOW is cheap. I cant speak for the next 5 years, but its dirt cheap now, one case of 5.56 would be about 3-5 cases of 5.45 milsurp.
Not alot, but major countries use this round in their militaries. Russia still uses it, where Wolf is made, so unless an importation ban is passed, the ammo should still be available, but not as prevalent as 5.56.
The round design is sound, very low recoil and accurate (more so than most AKs) at distance. It is not really designed for fragmentation, but for tumbling. A very long bullet tumbling like crazy inside the guts of an enemy. Ouch. It does have fragmentation potential at closer range, but nowhere close to what we have for 5.56. It was deemed the Afghan "poison bullet" as due to the tumbling, they could not find the bullet inside a wounded person, causing lead poisoning and death.

Personal notes: If commercial manufacturers made OTM or Soft points for this caliber, it would be just as effective as 5.56 if not more so, as the bullet weights tend to be heavier than what is generally used for 5.56. You can get 75gr stuff for 5.56, but the general weight for it is 55-62gr. The military stuff for 5.45 is 50 grain, but its real potential is with heavier stuff (but is harder to find). If they made heavy stuff that fragmented (OTM, heavy cannelure, etc..) this would be an EXTREMELY effective round.

 

[shooter521]

I'm going to take issue with a few of your points, and offer some clarifications and my own thoughts.

Its only a lack of the weapons firing it that is keeping the ammo price down with 5.45x39 (low demand, low pricing in high supply environments).

There's a butt-ton of AK-74 type rifles in circulation (Century/Romanian SAR-2s, WASR-2s, CAI Polish Tantals, Arsenal SLR-105s, not to mention all the kit builds), and a growing number of S&W M&P-15Rs. The "low" pricing is only on the Russian/Bulgarian mil-surp ammo (Wolf and other commercial 5.45 is cheaper than 5.56, but not by a whole lot), because millions upon millions of rounds were/are being surplused and imported.

The AKs that fire it use mainly Bakelite mags, which are brittle.

There are a lot of bakelite mags out there, but I've never had a problem with them cracking and I've run them plenty hard. The Bulgarian and Russian metal-reinforced polymer mags are close behind the EG bakelites in terms of commonality in the US, and are (arguably) more durable. They can also be had in a wide range of fashion colors.
A Guide to 5.45mm Kalashnikov Magazine Types

You would be better to get AK mags that are metal.

You can still get Romanian and Polish steel AK-74 mags from places like Centerfire systems or J&G Sales, at a cost not much higher than what the polymer mags are now fetching.

are now reliable with dedicated mags for 5.45, but availability may be an issue (right now at least).

My biggest gripe with the M&P-15R is that CProducts is the sole source for dedicated 5.45 AR mags. Given the spotty quality of their 5.56 and 9mm AR mags, this does not fill me with confidence.

The current supply of 5.45x39 is corrosive

Only the mil-surp stuff; you can still get Wolf, Silver Bear and other commercial loadings that are non-corrosive.

Cheaply made CAI rifles had issues with barrel twist. There are few bullet weights available. The CAI had an oversized bore and improper twist rate to fire the available ammo, so be careful when purchasing the gun

This issue was limited to the first run of CAI/Polish Tantals (as opposed to the CAI/Romanian SAR and WASR rifles), and it was because CAI cheaped out and used barrels made from Green Mountain .223 blanks instead of spec'ing a proper 5.45 barrel (which they did in later production runs). The early Tantals have a tendency to keyhole when they get hot, especially with the commercial loads using heavier (60 to 70 grain) bullets.

Most if not all AKs made in this caliber are generally (according to shooters) more accurate than their 7.62 counterparts. Barrel thickness and better QC is key to this.

As well as the 5.45 round being more inherently accurate than 7.62x39.

Not alot, but major countries use this round in their militaries. Russia still uses it, where Wolf is made

Actually, Russia is the sole remaining major military user. Poland and Bulgaria gave up the 5.45 for 5.56 when they joined NATO, which is why we've seen so much surplus from these countries in recent years. I believe Romania is in the process of doing so, as well.

The round design is sound, very low recoil and accurate (more so than most AKs) at distance. It is not really designed for fragmentation, but for tumbling. A very long bullet tumbling like crazy inside the guts of an enemy.

Contrary to popular belief, the 5.45 doesn't "tumble like crazy" or become some kind of "buzzsaw" in tissue. It typically rotates once or twice, coming to rest base-forward at the end of its travel.

From noted ballistics guru Dr. Gary Roberts:
The 5.45 x 39 mm Russian M74 53 gr FMJ boat-tailed bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket surrounding an unhardened steel core and a small 5 mm long empty air-space under the bullet nose. Its typical muzzle velocity is 3066 f/s. In contrast to the older 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS which it replaced, the 5.45 x 39 mm M74 53 gr FMJ commonly exhibits very early yaw in tissue, at approximately 2.75", but no deformation or fragmentation. In both uncomplicated extremity and torso wounds, the very early yaw allows the bullet to travel sideways through the body, increasing permanent tissue destruction and temporary cavitation effects. A small punctate entrance wound is present and the exit wound may be punctate, oblong, or stellate depending on the bullet yaw angle on exit. Penetration is approximately 21.6”. 5.45 x 39 mm M74 is a lot like an early yawing 5.56 mm bullet that does not fragment--for example M995, but without the AP capability. Good fragmenting 5.56 mm bullets, like the Hornady 75 gr or Nosler 77 gr OTM’s, are superior to 5.45 x 39 mm. I am unaware of any good terminal ballistic testing on commercial 5.45 x 39 mm loads.

If they made heavy stuff that fragmented (OTM, heavy cannelure, etc..) this would be an EXTREMELY effective round.

You'll get no argument from me there; I'd love to see US ammo makers do more to exploit the potential of the 5.45x39 (and for that matter, the 7.62x39), but there's no real impetus for them to do so as long as imported ammo remains available and relatively cheap.

 

[JosephR]

The Russians developed this round after seeing the effects of the 5.56x45mm in Vietnam.

The bullet has a clapper in it that moves forward upon impact, turning the bullet into a buzz saw.

Hardly any recoil.

There's a reason the Afghans called them "poison bullets" when Russia was there.

Then again, 7.62x39mm, esp Wolf, has a hollow nose which does much the same thing, in a larger caliber.

No, I don't think there's a reason to add another caliber, esp since the 5.45 stuff has been getting increasingly harder to find, and I'm aware of no domestic manufacturers.

On the other hand, I think the AK variants which fire them are beautiful. I was looking at buying one and converting it to 7.62x39mm. Dunno how legal that would be though.

Josh <><

LOL WUT? Are you serious? You CAN'T be!!

Most of the ammo has a hollow cavity that squishes and causes the heavy ass end of the projectile to tumble end over end. There are no magical blades or thorns or pixie dust in them to turn them into a buzz saw. If you're talking about the steel core, it performs no differently than much of the steel core ammo out there- it's meant to penetrate armor and vehicles.

FWIW, cannelured 5.56 is meant to break apart at the cannelure and cause damage a different way. Do you call that "exploding like a grenade with shrapnel to kill everyone in sight"?

 

[muncie21]

I have no additional 'technical' information to provide (it's already been posted) however I will add that at the current prices, it is worth it to look into shooting 5.45, if only for recreational (no poison bullets needed there) purposes.

At close to half the cost of current 7.62 or 5.56 I'll stock up and shoot it while I can. If my rifle turns to dust after 15K rounds, I've got my $$ out of it.

If it's an AR, just put a new $500 upper on it in your fav caliber and shoot some more.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Shooter521, you're my hero!

Some milsurp does have a steel core and hollow nose, but the length to diameter ratio that causes it to tumble VERY fast inside an entity. This violent tumbling causes severe wounding/trauma (buzz saw action!). The "clapper" was mostly an AP gig, not really designed to have wounding potential, but it does upset the bullet a smidge.

Most ammo that has a long length to short diameter ratio tends to want to tumble, the HP cavity excacerbates (spelling?) it. Interestingly enough, some guys on Arfcom have determined the 75gr HP in .223 for Wolf/Prvi fragments to 12" in gelatinous goo. They are a tough projectile, in construction. I would imagine, close enough, this 5.45 stuff would fragment horribly if given the chance (cannelure or similar). Also, cannelures are mostly to give the case something to crimp into (primary job) to prevent setback with violent actioning weapons, but has a GREAT effect in fragmentation! (yeay M193!)

What fragmentation really looks like (M193): Why you do not want to get shot with an M16...(Warning: Disturbing photograph)
(oh, and ignore the crap about the hydrostatic shock breaking the femur, thats BS and some guy trying to sound cool). Now, make a more violent tumbling bullet that can fragment (5.45), now we are in business.

 

[Wabatuckian]

LOL WUT? Are you serious? You CAN'T be!!

Most of the ammo has a hollow cavity that squishes and causes the heavy ass end of the projectile to tumble end over end. There are no magical blades or thorns or pixie dust in them to turn them into a buzz saw. If you're talking about the steel core, it performs no differently than much of the steel core ammo out there- it's meant to penetrate armor and vehicles.

FWIW, cannelured 5.56 is meant to break apart at the cannelure and cause damage a different way. Do you call that "exploding like a grenade with shrapnel to kill everyone in sight"?

Rapid tumbling think buzzsaw. It was designed to do this more than once inside a human torso, unlike other bullets, which will either tumble once or only yaw.

Some utilize a clapper which moves forward into the hollow nose to enhance this effect. I do not know if it replaced the standard entirely, but it is out there and works very well.

 

[LS2Notch]

I've been looking into the S&W M&P15R because of the current price of surplus 5.45x39. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about using an IONBOND DLC or similar coating to help prevent corrosion and aid in better cleaning? I figure stock up on ammo now while it's cheap and when the supply dries up people will be selling AR Uppers and AK74's at a reasonable price just to get rid of them.

 

[JosephR]

What are you going to Ion Bond? The chamber and inside of the barrel? The steel FSB?

Just spray it out with Windex, wash in the dishwaster then coat in WD40. No need to worry.

 

[JosephR]

Cons first: Ammo availability is an issue. While abundant now, it may not be for longer. When the 80s and 90s milsurp is gone, its gone. Its only a lack of the weapons firing it that is keeping the ammo price down with 5.45x39 (low demand, low pricing in high supply environments).
The AKs that fire it use mainly Bakelite mags, which are brittle. You would be better to get AK mags that are metal. The AR mags used to be an issue (unreliable as folks were modifying 5.56 mags) are now reliable with dedicated mags for 5.45, but availability may be an issue (right now at least).
The current supply of 5.45x39 is corrosive, while not a huge issue, it is a longevity issue. While people claim up and down that the AK and the S&W MP resists corrosion, it WILL eat your weapon up if not correctly maintained. Very few manufacturers make non corrosive 5.45.
Cheaply made CAI rifles had issues with barrel twist. There are few bullet weights available. The CAI had an oversized bore and improper twist rate to fire the available ammo, so be careful when purchasing the gun, always know your twist rate (plan ammo consumption accordingly) and report any issues to the manufacturer.

Pros:
Most if not all AKs made in this caliber are generally (according to shooters) more accurate than their 7.62 counterparts. Barrel thickness and better QC is key to this.
The ammo NOW is cheap. I cant speak for the next 5 years, but its dirt cheap now, one case of 5.56 would be about 3-5 cases of 5.45 milsurp.
Not alot, but major countries use this round in their militaries. Russia still uses it, where Wolf is made, so unless an importation ban is passed, the ammo should still be available, but not as prevalent as 5.56.
The round design is sound, very low recoil and accurate (more so than most AKs) at distance. It is not really designed for fragmentation, but for tumbling. A very long bullet tumbling like crazy inside the guts of an enemy. Ouch. It does have fragmentation potential at closer range, but nowhere close to what we have for 5.56. It was deemed the Afghan "poison bullet" as due to the tumbling, they could not find the bullet inside a wounded person, causing lead poisoning and death.

Personal notes: If commercial manufacturers made OTM or Soft points for this caliber, it would be just as effective as 5.56 if not more so, as the bullet weights tend to be heavier than what is generally used for 5.56. You can get 75gr stuff for 5.56, but the general weight for it is 55-62gr. The military stuff for 5.45 is 50 grain, but its real potential is with heavier stuff (but is harder to find). If they made heavy stuff that fragmented (OTM, heavy cannelure, etc..) this would be an EXTREMELY effective round.

BULL$HIT. How many ghetto boys are wandering the 'hood with 5 or more .45 caliber slugs in them?

I rest my case...

 

[sporter]

There are two types of people: Those that that have a gun that shoots 5.45 and those that want one.
/end of thread.

 

[JosephR]

Let's just quit with the old wives' tales please.

Can you find me any documentation that these rounds tumble more than once let alone several times, enough to simulate a spining saw blade?

 

[Disposable Heart]

Let's just quit with the old wives' tales please.

Can you find me any documentation that these rounds tumble more than once let alone several times, enough to simulate a spining saw blade?

Mercy and you're an expert how?

The AFGHANS could not find the bullet, not homies as per your previous comment.

 

[RealtorWhoCarries]

Looking around at ammo over the last few days and Ive noticed the availability of 5.45x39 ammo, as well as the price.

I know its available in my two favorite rifle platforms, the ar15 and AK variants, that aside what are some pros and cons of this ammo? Is there a reason to add just another rifle caliber to what I have now (.22, .223, 7.62 -x39 & x54r)?

thanks,
clay

short and sweet as many here have helped me with the same question. Assum you stockpile 10,000 rounds. I can save $3500 in ammo as there is about a .35 cent per round difference. That's a lot of money. So for the people that talk about future availability, i say forget it.. shoot up your surplus and if ammo is no longer avaiable, then change your upper to a .223. I mean at that point you've save more than enough to buy several guns. As for the corrosion, clean you gun. all of this IMHO Good luck

 

[JosephR]

Mercy and you're an expert how?

The AFGHANS could not find the bullet, not homies as per your previous comment.

WTF? YOU AND I COULD NOT FIND A BULLET IN A WOUNDED PERSON. Does that REALLY tell you the bullet is special?

JHC.

I'm laughing about the lead poisoning part of your comment. That's totally assinine to believe that a bullet will cause lead poisoning- especially a 60gr bullet that is mostly copper with a steel penetrator compared to a 230gr 45 slug that has a thin copper jacket.

Do you SEE what I was saying now?

I see references on the internet talking about how the OLD way of thinking was that they produced a buzz saw effect and that it isn't the case. Do you have something showing me that that has been overturned yet again?

Let's keep the nonsensical BS to a minimum.

 

[Disposable Heart]

WTF? YOU AND I COULD NOT FIND A BULLET IN A WOUNDED PERSON. Does that REALLY tell you the bullet is special?

JHC.

I'm laughing about the lead poisoning part of your comment. That's totally assinine to believe that a bullet will cause lead poisoning- especially a 60gr bullet that is mostly copper with a steel penetrator compared to a 230gr 45 slug that has a thin copper jacket.

Do you SEE what I was saying now?

I see references on the internet talking about how the OLD way of thinking was that they produced a buzz saw effect and that it isn't the case. Do you have something showing me that that has been overturned yet again?

Let's keep the nonsensical BS to a minimum.

They (Afghans) could not find it as it had traveled to an area due to the tumbling causing the bullet to stray from the original entry point. Also consider that their medicine was probably not terribly great. The bullet that would not be removed (as it was not in the area it entered) would gradually either get infected or contribute to lead poisoning.

Instead of crapping on everyone, why not offer some information, instead of being the "official source" that gives nothing? The point of a community is to offer information. Offer some...

 

[JosephR]

Refuting BAD information is just as helpful as providing some other sort of information.

You don't die from lead poisoning from bullets. Are you still going to argue that?

I never said the Afghans were great medics or that the bullet didn't yaw and travel to an odd location.

Look at ballistic gellatin tests of 5.45. It tends to go straight but at an upward angle. This isn't all that CRAZY or unusual. It creates a nice wound channel but nothing supernatural.

It was new, it was different, and to a person in a third world country it IS/WAS supernatural. You need to stop taking old stories from '81 and retelling them in '09 though...

"The base of the bullet is tapered to reduce drag and there is a small lead plug crimped in place in the base of the bullet. The lead plug, in combination with the air space at the point of the bullet, has the effect of moving the bullet's center of gravity to the rear; the hollow air space also makes the bullet's point prone to deformation when the bullet strikes anything solid, inducing yaw."

"Early ballistics tests done demonstrated a pronounced tumbling effect with high speed cameras.[2] Some Western authorities believed this bullet was designed to tumble in flesh to increase wounding potential. At the time, it was believed that yawing and cavitation of projectiles was primarily responsible for tissue damage. Martin Fackler conducted a study using live pigs and ballistic gelatin demonstrating that the 5.45 mm round does not reliably fragment or cause unusual amounts of tissue disruption. [3] Most organs and tissue were too flexible to be severely damaged by the temporary cavity effect caused by yaw and cavitation of a projectile. With the 5.45 mm bullet, tumbling produced a temporary cavity twice, at depths of 100 and 400 mm. This is comparable to modern 7.62x39mm ammunition and to (non-fragmenting) 5.56 mm ammunition. The average width of a human trunk is 400 mm."

"As body armor saw increasing use in Western militaries, bullet construction was changed several times to compensate. In 1987 a steel rod in the original 7N6 bullets was hardened to 60 HRC. In 1992 the size of the steel penetrator was increased and the lead plug in front of it discarded. This bullet was designated 7N10 "improved penetration". In 1994 the 7N10 design was improved by filling the air space with lead. Upon impacting a hard target, soft lead is pressed sideways by the steel penetrator, its hydrostatic pressure tearing the jacket. The 7N22 armour-piercing bullet, introduced in 1998, has a sharp-pointed steel penetrator and retaining the soft lead plug in the nose for jacket discarding. [4] The recent 7N24 "super-armor-piercing" bullet has a penetrator made of tungsten carbide."

So where is this stupid "clapper" or magical circular saw buzzsaw thingy?