357 Herrett for 2012 Deer Season

[Klah Taxidermy]

OK, what are the thoughts about chambering an H&R in a 357 Herrett for the new 2012 Deer Season.
I am looking for a 200 yard gun where I can buy the ammo or components and reload them without too much work.
This caliber looks like I can buy all the components off the shelf.
I want to know from the experts on what they feel this round is capable of doing from a single shot H&R(re-chambered).

 

[Skip]

Something to think about. This was on another forum in the discussion about the 357 Herret:

It was intended primarily as a hunting cartridge for the heavier varieties of medium game, however it has also become quite popular among silhouette shooters. It serves both purposes well, but one must bear in mind that as a hunting cartridge, it delivers ballistics inferior to the 35 Remington fired from a rifle.

 

[Leo]

I had a barrel for a TC Contender that was chambered for that cartridge. I had to form my own brass. I got a lot of neck splits during forming if I didn't anneal the necks first. Then I had to make up some rounds for fire forming. If you are hunting you probably do not need many cases.

I never tried it at 200 yards, but the 10 inch barrel, 100 yards was pretty accurate. I never got around to hunting with it, but I would think that something like a 158 gr Hornady XTP would be really effective. I believe the quote posted by Skip is accurate. The .357 Herett is a a lot more powerful than a .357 pistol cartridge, but is is not a high pressure rifle cartridge. Good Luck

 

[Klah Taxidermy]

Midway sells the bullets, brass, and dies right now.
Just have not seen much information on this caliber in a rifle, like an H&R.

 

[Skip]

Klah,
You may have something to look into. The quote that I posted above is talking about a comparison between the 35Rem in a rifle and the .357 Herret in a handgun, not both in a rifle.

It may be just the ticket for those folks that want to download for a youngster or wife.

Although, our .358/25 WSSM can be too. H4895, according to Mike Daly at Hodgdon can be reduced to a load weight of 40% of what we are/can use. Not sure about the other powders we have tried. He is on vacation until next year so getting info is a bit difficult right now.

Loading them down might be the ticket you are looking for unless you are wanting to get into the cheaper H&R platform.

Hey, spend the money and get them all Encores! You got the dough, brother!

 

[FredMcIntire]

If you are going to rechamber a Handi rifle, I'd suggest you rechamber a 357 Magnum to 357 Maximum. Speaking from personal experience, this gun is a deer hammer with 185 grain gas checked cast lead bullets. The rechamber takes all of 5 minutes.

 

[Skip]

Fred brings up a good point. I have the same question in the 44Mag. Why not take one of them up to 445 Super Mag? Same difference between the 44 calibers as the 357Mag and 357Max. The 357Max IS a 357 Super Mag, pretty much.

I wonder how it would take the 180gr Hornady SP Interlocks? What about the heavier bullets too, 200-225gr? Might not get enough velocity to get them to work well.

 

[EvilBlackGun]

Good tip!!

"More info, please." I have a .357 Herrett, and at a measured 220 yds. it makes a brown cloud out of a squirrel (unless he's a black squirrel.) Took me 2 shots. The first one, too high, he didn't even flinch. The second shot and he exploded. But I have another T/C .357 Mag that would be great to spend "5 minutes" with to make it into a Maximum. [Thanks for saving me the grief: per posts #9 and following, looks like I need not search for the best of both world's, since I may already have it in my cabinet! Thanks guys! I clipping your info for inclusion in my load-data book. EBG ]

If you are going to rechamber a Handi rifle, I'd suggest you rechamber a 357 Magnum to 357 Maximum. Speaking from personal experience, this gun is a deer hammer with 185 grain gas checked cast lead bullets. The rechamber takes all of 5 minutes.

 

[Klah Taxidermy]

Velocity on the 357 Herrett is going to be 200-250fps faster than the Max.
My goal is 200 yards. From what I have been reading, both will make it to 200 yards.
The max is still just over 1600fps&1000fpe @ 200 yards with a 180gr. bullet. Just comes down to performance, or that I just want something different. I bet before it is all said and done I get 3-357 barrels and chamber them for 357MAX,Herrett,&35 REM(trim to 1.8")

 

[Broom_jm]

Velocity on the 357 Herrett is going to be 200-250fps faster than the Max.
My goal is 200 yards. From what I have been reading, both will make it to 200 yards.
The max is still just over 1600fps&1000fpe @ 200 yards with a 180gr. bullet. Just comes down to performance, or that I just want something different. I bet before it is all said and done I get 3-357 barrels and chamber them for 357MAX,Herrett,&35 REM(trim to 1.8")

Klah, you're spot-on in your evaluations.

The 357MAX is a great round and was an exceptional choice for 2011 regulations. It will be 2012 in about 40 hours, at which time the 357 Herrett will simply be a better choice, and the 35 Remington, better still! The main advantage of the 357H over the MAX is that you can go with any number of larger 35 caliber bullets. With the MAX, you are limited because of how much powder capacity is used up by even the 180gr Hornady SSP. That little case struggles to drive the bullet fast enough to make it do what it needs to do.

With the 357 Herrett, you've got more room to work with. Some would argue it's a great blend of "enough" power w/o excessive recoil. It comes close to 35 Remington loads and, as you noted, exceeds 357 MAX by ~200fps. In fact, it about splits the difference between the MAX and 35 Remington. If you were to print out a ballistics sheet with all three listed, shooting an appropriate bullet for each, you'd have to really study it, but you'd see that shortened 35 Remington cases would win out, by a small margin.

Now, what is more work to you? Trimming an eighth inch off a cheap 35 Remington case or buying/fire-forming 357 Herrett brass? To me, with my Lyman drill-press mounted trimmer, the answer is simple: I'll go with the 35 Remington. About the only customized anything you "might" need is a Lee FCD trimmed ~.120" to crimp the case mouth.

I should also mention that I have a 30 Herrett barrel and enjoy shooting it quite a bit. I've often thought of getting its bigger brother, but IF it turns out the trimmed 35 Remington cases will still be plenty accurate, that's the way I'll go.

 

[kludge]

Well the only 35 caliber barrel that H&R has is the .357 Mag. Reaming it to .357 Max is going to give you .35 Rem ballisitcs. To ream the same barrel to .357 Herret means you going to have to find parts (I'm assuming here) from a .30-30 to change over the extractor and fit them to the barrel.

The .357 Herrett is said to be right at or just a bit slower than the .35 Rem, and the Herrett appears to have more case capacity than the Max, and I don't have any first hand experience with either, but I can't find anything that says it's 200fps faster then the Max, which is hitting 2200+ with a 180gr bullet, plus people are throting ther maxs to accommodate longer seating depths.

Due to availability, .357 Herrett brass will probably have to be formed, trimmed, and possibly annealed, from .30-30 brass, so there is more involvement from a handloading standpoint.

Three barrels sounds like a heck of a project.

 

[fireball168]

The .357 BFG-Herrett at 1.625", with a proper throat for .358" projectiles and a .350/.358 barrel made 2350 FPS with the 180g Hornady SSP, using published data for a 14" CONTENDER with AA1680 out of a 22" Encore.

More was to be had, I just never did any more with it. It did what I was looking for and that was as far as I went with it.

I've already got a modified 357 BFG-Herrett 1.750" reamer in production with the same body/shoulder and throat dimensions, just a lengthened neck.

Haven't done much with the cartridge on .346/.355-.357 groove pistol barrels, although I've got access to more than a few that can be rechambered easily enough once I get done testing the 357 Maximum 1.8".

 

[Broom_jm]

The .357 BFG-Herrett at 1.625", with a proper throat for .358" projectiles and a .350/.358 barrel made 2350 FPS with the 180g Hornady SSP, using published data for a 14" CONTENDER with AA1680 out of a 22" Encore.

More was to be had, I just never did any more with it. It did what I was looking for and that was as far as I went with it.

I've already got a modified 357 BFG-Herrett 1.750" reamer in production with the same body/shoulder and throat dimensions, just a lengthened neck.

Haven't done much with the cartridge on .346/.355-.357 groove pistol barrels, although I've got access to more than a few that can be rechambered easily enough once I get done testing the 357 Maximum 1.8".

Excellent info, as always! Do you think 2500fps is possible for the 180gr SSP, out of the full-length BFG-Herrett?

Also, might I ask what parent case you're using for the 357 Max 1.8" ? If that is still in the development stages and you'd rather not divulge, that's OK.

 

[fireball168]

Do you think 2500fps is possible for the 180gr SSP, out of the full-length BFG-Herrett?

Not by me!

 

[Skip]

There is no reason for these folks to care about the 357max seeing as they can use high powered rifles for any of their hunting but it seems that they are!

357 MAX PAGE - D&T Custom Gunworks Forum

Oklahoma, but hey, maybe we can glean some info from them!

 

[Broom_jm]

There is no reason for these folks to care about the 357max seeing as they can use high powered rifles for any of their hunting but it seems that they are!

357 MAX PAGE - D&T Custom Gunworks Forum

Oklahoma, but hey, maybe we can glean some info from them!

David White, of D&T Custom is a rifle-smith of the highest order. His work with both the 357 Max cartridge, and the H&R SB2 action, is second to none. If you want the very best from a single-shot rifle, he's your guy. He also happens to be a genuinely good person and the most realistic gun guy I've ever worked with, when it comes to telling you when he can have your work done. You won't be disappointed if you have him put together a rifle for you.

 

[Klah Taxidermy]

Just looked at the information he posted on expansion test done with multiple bullets shot at different distances. All I can say is WOW. He knows the .357Max probably better than anyone. Emailed him about chambering an H&R in either the Max,Herrett,or 35Rem. Relying on what he thinks will be the best.

 

[Broom_jm]

Just looked at the information he posted on expansion test done with multiple bullets shot at different distances. All I can say is WOW. He knows the .357Max probably better than anyone. Emailed him about chambering an H&R in either the Max,Herrett,or 35Rem. Relying on what he thinks will be the best.

The 35 Remington, with its higher case capacity, should give the best performance, so long as the short neck is not a limitation. I feel confident in stating that it will NOT be a problem in a single-shot action. Also, I'm intrigued by the idea of a 35 Remington Rimmed, using the 303 parent brass and it's 50,000psi working limit. Some folks suggest you can push the standard 35 Rem brass that hard, but I'd rather have the rimmed case for positive headspace and the peace of mind the stronger brass would give me.

FWIW - QuickLoad suggests loading a 35 Remington to 303 British pressures (using 303 brass) would allow you to push a 180gr SSP to 2,500fps, with a case-full of IMR4198. It also seems to think you could get 2,350fps out of a 200gr bullet. IF (this is all hypothetical) you could get 2,350fps from the 200gr FTX bullet, sighting it in 3" high at 100 yards would make it just under 6" low at 250 yards. That would be plenty of gun for most guys and within ~200fps of standard 358 Win. loads. Wouldn't that be nice?

Let us know what David recommends.

 

[kludge]

I would like to see an actual cross section of .303 Brit brass vs .35 Rem brass.

I would put 50kpsi in a .35 Rem case in a bolt gun without any hesitation... but at that point you may as well start with .358 Win brass and not worry about the smaller head dimension.

 

[Broom_jm]

I would like to see an actual cross section of .303 Brit brass vs .35 Rem brass.

I would put 50kpsi in a .35 Rem case in a bolt gun without any hesitation... but at that point you may as well start with .358 Win brass and not worry about the smaller head dimension.

The main reason behind the 303 Brit parent brass, in a break-action rifle, was having the rim to aid in headspacing and extraction. I agree with you that 35 Remington brass, in a bolt or strong single-shot, is probably plenty strong enough for 50,000psi. However, when I expressed that thought to David White, a grand wizard with the H&R SB2, he disagreed. He said he would NOT run 35 Remington brass that hot in any gun. Now, I've read articles where folks have done it, so I know you CAN, but I have no personal experience with how wise it is. With the 303 brass, you know it's meant to run at those pressures, so it removes all doubt.

If I go with a 336, I'll use 35 Remington brass at factory pressures. If I go with a single-shot, I'll probably still use 35 Remington brass, but step it up a bit. If I run into any issues with higher-pressure loads, like very short case life, I can always have a rim cut in the chamber and modify the extractor to use 303 brass.