.22LR rifle options for neck/hand issues

[gopher]

Don't give up on the Aguila ammunition until you try it. I have shot a lot of Aguila Super Extra high velocity 40 grain round nose and had very good results with it in three different 10/22s with 18.5" taper barrels. I have had no reliability issues. Accuracy is very nearly as good as with CCI Standard Velocity. I know of others who have had good results with Aguila Super Extra standard velocity 40 grain and with Aquila 40 grain Pistol Match.

Did you send that trigger group back to Brimstone? I have heard that their customer support is excellent. I know others who had trouble with their Brimstone modified trigger assemblies, sent them back, and never had any more trouble.

You’ve got to try a particular load in YOUR rifle to know if it is any good. That said, some ammo typically works better than others and you can use that as a guide to selecting loads to test.

 

[Ggreen]

You’ve got to try a particular load in YOUR rifle to know if it is any good. That said, some ammo typically works better than others and you can use that as a guide to selecting loads to test.

This is truth here. The more expensive brands seem to keep consistent through multiple lots, but if you buy cheaper stuff by the case you will find some cheap runs shoot exceptionally well. Not like you won't burn through the cheap ammo plinking anyway. My recent shock was with some CCI super sonic rounds in a ruger precision that was easily holding. 75 moa. I went back to the shop I got it from and bought out every box with that lot number. This same round holds garbage patterns in my semi auto 22s (xring, tippmann, kriss) the tippmann loves a lot of super extra I have, keeps dime groups at 50 with it. I haven't found a round that keeps the kriss running well while holding good groups, seems like I get one or the other.

Accuracy increases even more when you weigh the rounds from a particular case and get the loads that are identical in the same magazine.

The lists and suggestions are good starting points, but unwise to shoot for score without a personal dope.

 

[diveski11]

...the tippmann loves a lot of super extra I have, keeps dime groups at 50 with it. I haven't found a round that keeps the kriss running well while holding good groups, seems like I get one or the other...

Ggreen: Would you mind doing a Pro's/Con's rundown on the Kriss dmk22c vs the Tippmann? I'm most likely going to stay in the "AR" format for my next .22. I like to keep it simple and the ability to adjust stock/riser pieces quickly may be vital given my physical limitations. Thanks!

The knowledge base being shared in this thread is GREATLY appreciated!

 

[gopher]

This looks interesting: https://ruger.com/products/1022TargetLite/models.html
Doesn't have adjustable comb but there are add-on products if that is necessary. Won't know until I have a scope on it.
Trigger reach looks reasonable for small hands and the vertical grip is what I tend to like with the wrist pain.

That might be an "off the shelf" option if you don't want to customize. Note that you're getting the Ruger BX trigger ($90), a "tension barrel" (Ruger doesn't appear to sell this barrel separately; a Volquartsen tension barrel goes for >$300) and an upgraded stock (again, Ruger doesn't appear to offer this stock separately; a comparable thumbhold stock is ~$200 at Stocky's) for a ~$400 premium over a 10/22 "carbine". Whether the $400 extra (for ~$600 worth of parts) justifies the BX trigger, tension barrel and stock is up to you. If you end up chucking one or more of these, then the 10/22 Target Lite is probably not worth the money and you should just go with the 10/22 "carbine" as a starting point or perhaps just build a full custom 10/22 from the ground up.

 

[gopher]

"Best 22lr ammo" discussions come up pretty frequently on rimfire central dot com, and the Project Appleseed forum. Most of the Project Appleseed 22lr events are shot at either 25 yards or 25 meters, and probably 3/4 or more of the participants are shooting some variety of Ruger 10/22. As was discussed earlier, these AS events are very similar to the Revere's Riders basic rifle 125 events.

For what it is worth, here is a comment that was posted on the Appleseed forum by an AS instructor: "Most of the Arkansas Appleseeders, who have some level of instructor hat, shoot CCI ammo at the Appleseed events in our state. Some shoot 40 gr MiniMags (1200 fps). Some shoot Standard Velocity (1070 fps). In the instructor corps, there is also occasional Aguila SuperExtra. We, that shoot CCI Standard Velocity, insist that the groups are smaller."

Part of the problem is finding the best ammo is that a variety that works reliably and affords excellent accuracy in your rifle, may give lousy results in your friend's. There are good reasons for this.

In general, most folks find that some variety of 40 grain round nose 22lr will be most accurate at 25-50 yard range. Forget the "quiet" ammo which is really low velocity and won't reliably cycle the action of many semi-auto rifles. Standard velocity ammunition is subsonic, but quiet ammo has a significantly lower muzzle velocity still. Also forget the hyper-velocity ammo which tends to use light projectiles and is intended more for shooting varmints at longer ranges. Some rifle shooters find that standard velocity ammo is a bit more accurate but others have found that "high" (not hyper) velocity ammo (which has a super-sonic muzzle velocity) provides as good or better accuracy in their rifles. Most high quality match ammo is going to be of the standard velocity type.

Although the nominal projectile diameter for 22 long rifle is 0.223", you will find that some varieties of 22lr have projectile diameters up to 0.225" diameter or as small as .221. You might not think that a couple thousands of an inch makes much difference, but it can make for very different results in two different barrels. "Match" chambers tend to be considerably tighter than those found on semi-auto rifles, and many match rifles are bolt action. The bores of match rifles often tend to be a bit tighter than many semi-auto barrels. You will generally get the best accuracy if you can match the diameter of the projectile to the diameter of your rifle bore. You will probably get the most accuracy from ammunition with projectiles slightly greater in diameter (up to .001") than the diameter of your rifle bore. Since most of us do not own precision micrometers and bore gauges that are accurate to less than a thousand of an inch, this means trial and error.

Bolt action match rifles can use ammunition that is a very tight fit in the chamber. The positive cam action of the bolt will guarantee reliable feeding, whereas a semi-auto rifle requires the force of the recoil spring to feed ammunition into the chamber, which is much less positive. So most semi-auto rifles will have more generous chambers to ensure reliable feeding. Sometimes very expensive match quality ammo will not give the best accuracy in a semi-auto 22lr with a generous chamber because the cartridge is a somewhat loose fit. On the other hand, using an ammunition type with a generous projectile diameter in a rifle with a tight chamber and barrel bore may result in failures to feed. Also, some barrels with tighter chambers and bores may not allow reliable extraction of a live round if the projectile is a tight fit. This means that if you run out of time on those timed stages, and a cease fire is called before you have fired all your shots, you may be left with a live round chambered that has to be manually extracted from the chamber.

You will generally be much better off with ammunition that is packaged with the cartridges separated in 50 or 100 round boxes. For one thing, it tends to be more consistent with regards to powder charge and tends to have more reliable primer charges than the bulk-pack ammo. Also, when you have a bunch of cartridges rattling around loose in a box, the projectiles can get dinged up to a greater or lessor degree which can effect accuracy. There are always odd-ball exceptions, however. I saw one youtube video in which a guy was testing a variety of ammo types in a 22lr semi-auto and found that Federal Auto-Match bulk-pack gave better results than either CCI mini-mag or CCI Standard velocity.

Obviously, try to buy one or two 50 round boxes of each ammo before you commit to buying in quantity. In addition to CCI 40 grain Mini-mag and CCI 40 grain Standard Velocity, I would try Aguila Super Extra (either standard velocity or high velocity or both), CCI Blazer, CCI Green Tag, Eley Target, SK Standard Plus, and Wolf Match Extra (which is probably the same thing as SK Standard Plus).

All good advice here (except that I've found Aguila ammo to be unreliable and not terribly accurate in MY rifles; YMMV).

 

[hammerd13]

That might be an "off the shelf" option if you don't want to customize. Note that you're getting the Ruger BX trigger ($90), a "tension barrel" (Ruger doesn't appear to sell this barrel separately; a Volquartsen tension barrel goes for >$300) and an upgraded stock (again, Ruger doesn't appear to offer this stock separately; a comparable thumbhold stock is ~$200 at Stocky's) for a ~$400 premium over a 10/22 "carbine". Whether the $400 extra (for ~$600 worth of parts) justifies the BX trigger, tension barrel and stock is up to you. If you end up chucking one or more of these, then the 10/22 Target Lite is probably not worth the money and you should just go with the 10/22 "carbine" as a starting point or perhaps just build a full custom 10/22 from the ground up.

I recommend a ground-up build wholeheartedly. That way everything will be just as you want/need it.

My best shooting .22lr rifle began as a Ruger 10/22 carbine purchased in the 1980s. The only part left that still bears the "Ruger" name is the receiver (and the magazines). I would have been money and time ahead if I had just built the thing from scratch from the beginning. I did gain quite a bit of knowledge, though as the build/rebuild/rebuild again progressed.

The 10/22 PLATFORM is excellent, but aftermarket parts rule in the areas of function and precision.

 

[Areoflyer09]

That might be an "off the shelf" option if you don't want to customize. Note that you're getting the Ruger BX trigger ($90), a "tension barrel" (Ruger doesn't appear to sell this barrel separately; a Volquartsen tension barrel goes for >$300) and an upgraded stock (again, Ruger doesn't appear to offer this stock separately; a comparable thumbhold stock is ~$200 at Stocky's) for a ~$400 premium over a 10/22 "carbine". Whether the $400 extra (for ~$600 worth of parts) justifies the BX trigger, tension barrel and stock is up to you. If you end up chucking one or more of these, then the 10/22 Target Lite is probably not worth the money and you should just go with the 10/22 "carbine" as a starting point or perhaps just build a full custom 10/22 from the ground up.

Something just to note, Volquartsen anything tends to cost more than the Kidd equivalent.

I’m not disagreeing with Gopher that you’ll spend more building, but I think you could end up closer than $400.
-Basic 10/22 - $250 out the door
-Stock of choice - $200 roughly
-Kidd trigger job kit - $107 (get the spring pack you can pick your trigger weight)
-Kidd ULW barrel - $185

Total is around $800 with taxes and shipping, compared to around $550 (Buds has a Target Lite listed age $502 plus $35 in taxes and the transfer fee). Personally, I’d feel the extra $250 is worth spending if you wanted to build a light(er) 10/22.

I know the OP is looking more at the AR options, but I felt it was worth noting the price difference could be closer than it looks for others that will find the thread.

 

[Ggreen]

Ggreen: Would you mind doing a Pro's/Con's rundown on the Kriss dmk22c vs the Tippmann? I'm most likely going to stay in the "AR" format for my next .22. I like to keep it simple and the ability to adjust stock/riser pieces quickly may be vital given my physical limitations. Thanks!

The knowledge base being shared in this thread is GREATLY appreciated!

I'll get some together. My kriss is the LVOA and it weights a metric ton, but it's licensed by war sport and on video games I like lol. I'll put up an objective pros and cons sometime over my holiday.

 

[gopher]

Ggreen: Would you mind doing a Pro's/Con's rundown on the Kriss dmk22c vs the Tippmann? I'm most likely going to stay in the "AR" format for my next .22. I like to keep it simple and the ability to adjust stock/riser pieces quickly may be vital given my physical limitations. Thanks!

The knowledge base being shared in this thread is GREATLY appreciated!

The Tippmann M4-22 description says that it has a "composite" free float handguard. I take that to mean it is some kind of polymer/plastic. I would consider that a negative for the Tippmann as compared to the Kriss which has an alloy handguard. The metal handguard will likely flex less that the "composite" handguard when placed under tension from a sling.

Of course, the barrel, receiver, etc. will be more important for accuracy than the handguard; however, all else being equal, I would take the metal handguard over the "composite" one. Note that the Kriss DMK-22 takes modified 10/22 barrels so you have a universe of options for a replacement barrel should one be needed; it isn't clear if the Tippmann uses a proprietary barrel or not.

That said, if the Tippmann uses a standard AR-15 receiver/handguard interface then you should be able to swap in most any metal AR-15 handguard you like (~$100-200). Of course, that is added cost to the stock Tippmann...

Here is a review of the Tippmann M4-22 that might be helpful. The review provides the following information:

• handguard is indeed polymer/plastic
• the handguard is an old "quad-rail" design that many people refer to as a "cheese grater" (for good reason, it eats hands)
• handguard is NOT free-floated (this *can* negatively affect accuracy)
• the magazines are somewhat unique in that they are standard AR-15 size (so they fit AR-15 mag pouches) but have an interior portion that pops out to load .22LR rounds

Here is a review of the Kriss DMK-22 that elicits the following:

• the handguard uses proprietary adapters to mount accessories (not M-Lok or Keymod although apparently a Keymod adapter will work)
• can use S&W M&P 15-22 magazines (last round bolt hold open only works with the proprietary Kriss magazines though)

 

[gopher]

Something just to note, Volquartsen anything tends to cost more than the Kidd equivalent.

I’m not disagreeing with Gopher that you’ll spend more building, but I think you could end up closer than $400.
-Basic 10/22 - $250 out the door
-Stock of choice - $200 roughly
-Kidd trigger job kit - $107 (get the spring pack you can pick your trigger weight)
-Kidd ULW barrel - $185

Total is around $800 with taxes and shipping, compared to around $550 (Buds has a Target Lite listed age $502 plus $35 in taxes and the transfer fee). Personally, I’d feel the extra $250 is worth spending if you wanted to build a light(er) 10/22.

I know the OP is looking more at the AR options, but I felt it was worth noting the price difference could be closer than it looks for others that will find the thread.

Volquartsen is definitely pricey. I only mentioned them as they were the only source I could quickly find for a 10/22 tension barrel; there may be other suppliers of tension barrels at lower cost that I didn't come across...

 

[Areoflyer09]

Volquartsen is definitely pricey. I only mentioned them as they were the only source I could quickly find for a 10/22 tension barrel; there may be other suppliers of tension barrels at lower cost that I didn't come across...

No worries! Volquartsen tends to be very proud of their products and prices them as such. Awesome parts and quality.

 

[diveski11]

Tippmann has a newer model that has a free float aluminum M-LOK handguard for $40 more than their base model. I'd need all new magazines at $30 each. They do sell two types of fluted barrels ($165).

I have a bunch of 15-22 magazines that would work with the Kriss. But the lack of last round bolt hold open could be annoying. I thought I had read a review where the bolt hold open did work with 15-22 mags but need to find that again. Buying new magazines would be a small price to pay ($12.50 each) to be able to upgrade the barrel later on - if even necessary. I see that some gunsmithing is necessary to swap barrels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGt0zmLgMnw Looks like good precision with a few types of ammo.

 

[gopher]

Tippmann has a newer model that has a free float aluminum M-LOK handguard for $40 more than their base model. I'd need all new magazines at $30 each. They do sell two types of fluted barrels ($165).

I have a bunch of 15-22 magazines that would work with the Kriss. But the lack of last round bolt hold open could be annoying. I thought I had read a review where the bolt hold open did work with 15-22 mags but need to find that again. Buying new magazines would be a small price to pay ($12.50 each) to be able to upgrade the barrel later on - if even necessary. I see that some gunsmithing is necessary to swap barrels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGt0zmLgMnw Looks like good precision with a few types of ammo.

I'm sure either Allen Moore or Brett Havlin could easily handle modifying a 10/22 barrel to fit the Kriss (looks like it is pretty minor machining work).

 

[Ggreen]

The tippmann doesn't need a new barrel. They are shooters out of the box. They are also milspec ish, so you can easily drop in a barrel or have the factory one fluted.

OK so a quick run down
Tippmann. Kriss
Bbl. Milspec 10/22
My accuracy. 50yds MOA or better. 1.5 moa
Reciever. Aluminum. Al
Handguard. Free float alum. ""
Trigger. Milspec. ""


They are very similar on paper. In action they are different. The kriss doesn't utilize a buffer, the reciever is blocked the action is contained in the carrier, the tippmann uses a more standard buffer action. Seems to me the tippmann is more reliable, but I need more time with the kriss.

The tippmann is able to accept any handguard, so you can pick your poison, the elite model has a very acceptable aluminum hg. The kriss is proprietary so that it can accept 1022 bbls. Mine is the LVOA and it's heavy, the standard seems nice.

Overall I recommend the tippmann. It's a great rifle and it's compatible with the major ar15 components. The kriss is nice too, but it just hasn't performed to the level both of my tippmann have.

 

[diveski11]

Thanks GGreen!

I've found a couple of AS reviews where multiple people have shot very high scores with the Tippmann with CCI SV. I have quite a bit of Mini Mag. Found an Elite online new for $530. There's a $50 rebate on sales by end of day 12/31/19........ It's also kinda cool that they're an Indiana company.

 

[Ggreen]

Thanks GGreen!

I've found a couple of AS reviews where multiple people have shot very high scores with the Tippmann with CCI SV. I have quite a bit of Mini Mag. Found an Elite online new for $530. There's a $50 rebate on sales by end of day 12/31/19........ It's also kinda cool that they're an Indiana company.

I got my elite for 539 locally and have mailed in the 50 dollar rebate.

 

[diveski11]

I got my elite for 539 locally and have mailed in the 50 dollar rebate.

Do you mind sharing which store? PM is fine.

 

[Ggreen]

Do you mind sharing which store? PM is fine.

Guns and tackle in Greensburg. He had 2 standard models left earlier this week.

 

[Ggreen]

I plan to shoot my m422 w/ Redfield revolution 3-9 at my next Revere's Riders. Possibly switch to a 1-4, I need to get to the range and see what I like at 25

 

[Areoflyer09]

The tippmann doesn't need a new barrel. They are shooters out of the box. They are also milspec ish, so you can easily drop in a barrel or have the factory one fluted.

OK so a quick run down
Tippmann. Kriss
Bbl. Milspec 10/22
My accuracy. 50yds MOA or better. 1.5 moa
Reciever. Aluminum. Al
Handguard. Free float alum. ""
Trigger. Milspec. ""


They are very similar on paper. In action they are different. The kriss doesn't utilize a buffer, the reciever is blocked the action is contained in the carrier, the tippmann uses a more standard buffer action. Seems to me the tippmann is more reliable, but I need more time with the kriss.

The tippmann is able to accept any handguard, so you can pick your poison, the elite model has a very acceptable aluminum hg. The kriss is proprietary so that it can accept 1022 bbls. Mine is the LVOA and it's heavy, the standard seems nice.

Overall I recommend the tippmann. It's a great rifle and it's compatible with the major ar15 components. The kriss is nice too, but it just hasn't performed to the level both of my tippmann have.

Are you meaning that you can drop in a new Tippmann barrel easily because of the design or it can take other barrels? Just wondering if they changed something, when I spoke with them last year about mine they were utilizing a proprietary barrel. They wouldn’t sell me a new barrel for a project I wanted to do.