WOW! WWII, why we needed to drop 2 A-bombs, facts you did not learn in school.

[tenring]

The scholars and historians who said the bomb wasn't necessary, most likely were never scheduled to be on an LST with a rifle on the initial invasion on the large island on the south of Japan where there were 900,000 troops to meet them. Only after the war was over, that over 5000 Kamikaze type aircraft were discovered along with millions of weapons ready to be issued to civilians for use against the Allies.

MacArthur wanted to use nukes in Korea, and Truman told him to stuff his ideas where the sun doesn't shine.

Ever have a conversation with someone who spent time in a Japanese POW camp? Ever talk to a Filipino who lived through the occupation by the Japanese Imperial Army? Read anything about the Rape of Nanking? Wonder why the Chinese are attempting to take over so many islands claimed by Japan. Think payback.

To familiarize the nay sayers with the mentality of the Japanese at that time, please Google Unit 731 and spend some time reading about that place, and what went on.

A few years ago, a back hoe in China uncovered what appeared to be some porcelain containers. Not knowing what they were, work was stopped until some one could figure out what they were. One and only one picture was taken before the area was closed off until chemical experts from China, Japan, and the US could arrive on sight. Nothing more was ever heard on the results of that investigation. Read the info and you will find out what they were, and why they were buried there.

You start a horrible war, and when you lose, you lose. There was a huge out cry when MacArthur kept the Emperor around, but history will tell you that when he told the Army to lay down their arms, and not to resist the Allies, they obeyed and there were very few incidents. In Europe, over 2000 Gi's were killed after the war was over, mainly by Hitler Youth and die hard Nazi's. Some German outfits were kept alive by Patton who sent them out to "eliminate" that problem until the politicians found out about keeping the Nazi's in uniform and armed, and had Patton relived and finally canned when he advocated taking on the Russians.

And the last time I checked, Indianapolis is still on the list for a nuke from Putin. It did get down graded from the "A" list to the "B" list a number of years ago. How many "civilians" are in that target area?

War is just about politics! Had my war 40 years ago, and with the Sand Box and the Rock Pile , I just don't care anymore.

 

[gunrunner0]

I find it extremely difficult to reconcile the kamikaze attacks, persistence in dying in suicidal charges rather than surrendering, and the weapons massed along the coasts of the Japanese home islands as indicators that the Japanese had any intention in the universe of surrendering.

This.

Don't forget that these people were brainwashed by their military and government to believe that if we invaded, we would essentially do to them what they did to the chinese in Nanking. When we took some of the islands like Iwo Jima, close to the home islands, many japanese civilians residing on the conquered islands threw themselves off cliffs as opposed to surrendering to us. Also don't forget the Kyujo incident, when a group of military officers tried to overthrow the emperor to prevent surrender. Anyone who thinks that these people wouldn't have fought to the bitter end, causing massive casualties for both us and them, is completely ignorant of historical facts.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Complicated situation, complicated decision.

Dropping Nukes on Japan served a number of purposes.

It allowed us to put a punctuation mark on our war with Japan, showing them that we were capable and willing to bring the war in the Pacific to a final end if necessary.

It allowed us to see in practice what this new superweapon did to actual cities filled with actual people.

It also showed the Soviets that we were capable and willing to keep the war in Europe ended, with brutal means if necessary.

Before we dropped the bombs I see the Soviet Union as posing a sincere threat to Western Europe. They had been beaten mightily by the Germans, but they were mobilized and very much in the fight. I know the American command was concerned with the prospect of the reds not being satisfied with the line and pushing it to France or the Atlantic. The reality is that the reds could have made one hell of a mess if they wanted to push their luck.

If we had not dropped two nukes on Japan when we did, I figure we would have dropped a handful on Soviet cities months later. Everyone figured the Japanese had it coming and it made a good object lesson.

There were many motivators and many results of the decision. I figure stopping the Soviets from dragging on another two or six years of the war was more significant than hastening the Japanese surrender by weeks or months.

Bad deal for the residents of Nagasaki, Dresden, Nanjing, Manila, Stalingrad, London, Milan, etc. Bad deal for families all across the US too. War is a ****ty mess, a bad deal for everyone involved.

I figure we nuked Japan to end the war that had not yet started between us and the Soviets more than to end the war that was winding down between us and the Japanese but it was all part of it.

Stalin had to see that we were serious and the Japanese hit us first so they won the prize.

 

[Jludo]

Unfortunately for you, there are many people in the world that have no qualms of doing just that to you. And if you are not prepared to unleash all hell on your war-time enemies, you will only encourage them by your perceived weakness to attack you. Maybe if our modern wars were bloodier, the repulsiveness would serve two purposes: cause our enemies to tremble with the thought of the retaliation the would surely and quickly come their way and/or prevent the police-action, interventionists from dragging us into every Iraq and Yugoslavian do-gooder conflict around the world.

So you're defending the targeting of civilians on the basis that that's what they would do to us?

 

[Jludo]

Why won't anyone address my point that the Japanese were prepared to surrender given they were allowed to keep their emperor, a condition later met by the allies.

 

[Jludo]

Ever have a conversation with someone who spent time in a Japanese POW camp? Ever talk to a Filipino who lived through the occupation by the Japanese Imperial Army? Read anything about the Rape of Nanking? Wonder why the Chinese are attempting to take over so many islands claimed by Japan. Think payback.

Ever talked to Japanese child vaporized by a nuke?
Why wouldn't the argument work both ways? If all it takes to justify your position is a conversation with someone adversely affected by war.

 

[Jludo]

In those days Americans would have marched on Washington with the pitchforks and torches if they found we had suffered high casualties rather than employ such an advanced weapon.

What would they have done had they known the Japanese were prepared to surrender if we let them keep their emperor?

 

[mrjarrell]

The Hiroshima Myth ?

The bombings were not necessary. The Japanese were already willing to surrender by May 1945. All they wanted was what they got anyway. The continuation of the imperial line.

 

[edsinger]

Well this has been an interesting thread........

IF the US Gov't intended to maximize Japanese civilian casualties in WWII, they'd have continued fire-bombing.

How true.....a few here mentioned Dresden.....did the Germans surrender then? Would London have surrendered if it was firebombed in like manner?

I will not judge our fathers and grandfathers for their decisions. I respect the sacrifices they endured. As far as morals? We don't hold a candle to them in that department.

Very well put sir....very well indeed. I am saddened by the later generations and the unbelievably naive attitudes. I have talked to WWII Pacific Veterans as well as the European theater ones. The Germans although sick (Few of them), were nothing like the fanatical Japanese, not even close. The Emperor of Japan saved his nation and he almost was unable to do that. Japan turned out much better off BECAUSE the bomb was dropped. Of this I have no doubt.

Fanatical --- Do we not yet see that still today in the Islamic world. Do they surrender?

Japan was not even close to surrendering, they were biding their time in the hopes that the yanks could not stomach the losses any more.

It allowed us to put a punctuation mark on our war with Japan, showing them that we were capable and willing to bring the war in the Pacific to a final end if necessary.

FACT

It also showed the Soviets that we were capable and willing to keep the war in Europe ended, with brutal means if necessary.

FACT



In conclusion, war is HELL and not for those with unrealistic expectations of what humanity means. We WERE humane by dropping it, not only for the Japanese nation, but for many upon many of Americans..I would like to add other nations as well but that is a whole other thread.

I agree with Truman...Drop the S.O.B!


That being said, the Japanese today are an ally of the US, it is time the ninny's of the world understand why that is the case.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

So you're defending the targeting of civilians on the basis that that's what they would do to us?

I want fewer wars. I want possible enemies to fear the prospect of initiating a conflict with us. Often times you have to convince the civilians it is in their best interest to force their leadership to capitulate and that means fewer or our dead countrymen.

 

[tenring]

A bomber pilot who flew missions over Germany was interviewed about carpet bombing German cities, and wondered if he felt bad that thousands of civilians were killed a result [remember that if you were withing one mile of your target, you were on target] and his reply was that if a woman made a sack lunch for her husband who worked at a Nazi armament factory, and she was killed or injured as a result of a bombing raid, she was considered a part of the war machine of the enemy. I had a nice talk with a German woman who admitted that she was a member of the Hitler Youth movement [mandatory] and admitted that she had heard Hitler speak many times from her pre-teen years, and he was absolutely hypnotizing, and she believed in him up until the very end. The Japanese were taught from pre-elementary school in the Bushido Code. They were fanatics, and how would I talk to a child who was vaporized?

 

[MPH]

War means fighting and killing. If the deaths of the men, women and children of my enemy would result in fewer deaths of my own countryfolk and comrades in arms, then so be it.

THATS the decision President Truman made, I'm glad he made it, and those who disagree can disagree..but I'm glad you are in the minority and not prone to be in a position to defend me and mine.

 

[cobber]

What would they have done had they known the Japanese were prepared to surrender if we let them keep their emperor?

You can keep repeating that all you want, but the military would not have surrendered. The concept simply wasn't in their vocabulary.


What if Japan offered to surrender if we let them keep the portions of China they still occupied? Retain their imperial forces intact?

Allowing the enemy to dictate terms seems contrary to the concept of surrender.

 

[Jludo]

You can keep repeating that all you want, but the military would not have surrendered. The concept simply wasn't in their vocabulary.

They would have, they do what the emperor tells them to do, as proven by the fact that they did surrender.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Basically They started it in a George Zimmerman type of way... or a Trayvon Martin type of way?

They started it in the same sense that a murderer travels to your town, kills your citizens, then flees back out of your jurisdiction and the government of that jurisdiction refuses to turn the murderer over for trial. What happens next is on them, not on the folks who've had their citizens murdered. And, yes, I distinguish between military direct and collateral damage and "murder."

 

[Jludo]

War means fighting and killing. If the deaths of the men, women and children of my enemy would result in fewer deaths of my own countryfolk and comrades in arms, then so be it.

THATS the decision President Truman made, I'm glad he made it, and those who disagree can disagree..but I'm glad you are in the minority and not prone to be in a position to defend me and mine.

That's a sickening position to take, kill all the woman and children it takes as long as a soldier born on this of an invisible line isn't put in harms way.

 

[Jludo]

They started it in the same sense that a murderer travels to your town, kills your citizens, then flees back out of your jurisdiction and the government of that jurisdiction refuses to turn the murderer over for trial. What happens next is on them, not on the folks who've had their citizens murdered. And, yes, I distinguish between military direct and collateral damage and "murder."

Kill everyone in the town right?

 

[Jludo]

I want fewer wars. I want possible enemies to fear the prospect of initiating a conflict with us. Often times you have to convince the civilians it is in their best interest to force their leadership to capitulate and that means fewer or our dead countrymen.

Right, by 'convince' you mean ruthlessly and systematically murder them, I got it.

 

[MPH]

That's a sickening position to take, kill all the woman and children it takes as long as a soldier born on this of an invisible line isn't put in harms way.

You can be as "sickened" as you want. It's your right, and if you want to call President Truman, Curtis LeMay and a slew of other U.S. leaders of that era "sickening" that too is your right to think that.


After you conclude your genuflecting, you may want to Thank them as well. I doubt you will though.

(Lightbulb!) Come to think of it, I have a right to an opinion, too, and my opinion of your logic is that your myopic ideology, cloaked in moral indignation, is what is sickening.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

In those days Americans would have marched on Washington with the pitchforks and torches if they found we had suffered high casualties rather than employ such an advanced weapon.

And they would have had very good reason to do so and the politicians would have deserved tarring and feathering if they had.