WOW! WWII, why we needed to drop 2 A-bombs, facts you did not learn in school.

[tenring]

National Archives was the source.

 

[Jludo]

National Archives was the source.

For the invasion plan sure, not for anything else. No one is contesting what an invasion would have entailed or that there was an invasion plan. The issue is with the idea that an invasion was going to be the necessary alternative to the bombs.

 

[Rhoadmar]

You don't know the reasons Bin Laden gave for 911?
[video=youtube;TA3Dn1ZqvGg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA3Dn1ZqvGg[/video]

Oh that completely explains his reasons. He attacked merely to improve his power base in radical Islamic circles. The Japanese attacked and declared war against the U.S.

 

[tenring]

The bombs seemed to be the alternative to the invasion, meaning that if the two bombs did not bring out a surrender, then the only other alternative was the loss of millions of lives. And one should not forget the plan of devastating multiple cities with mustard gas, a plan that was favored quite heavily in some circles. That would have been a hundred times worse than the bombs. Apparently we have a different interpretation of historical events.

 

[nawainwright]

The thing is there are ways of knowing, there's a slew of documents and quotes out there saying the Japanese were defeated and looking for conditional surrender. Are you saying that they weren't looking for conditional surrender or that we shouldn't have accepted anything less than unconditional surrender?

I'm saying that you are dealing in HYPOTHETICAL SITUATIONS! They may have been ready to surrender a hundred times and didn't. They may never have surrendered and we'd have had to commit genocide. I'm saying, outside of what actually happened you can SPECULATE what MIGHT have happened, maybe even what COULD have happened, but it DIDN'T happen. So pound your fists all you want and scream into the hills that you're "right". I'm not going to debate you on what MIGHT have happened. Life is too short.

 

[Jerchap2]

 

[arthrimus]

The right decision was made, by virtue of the fact that it was the only decision to which we know the exact outcome; that it produced the desired result of ending the war. That's not to say it was necessarily the BEST decision, but we cannot know what the best decision might have been; there are far too many variables.

All that we can do is look at the causes and effects of historical events, and try to judge what is right and wrong, not what is best; for any attempt to do so would be pure speculation, and in no way similar to what might have happened "if only things had been different."

 

[IndyDave1776]

The bombs seemed to be the alternative to the invasion, meaning that if the two bombs did not bring out a surrender, then the only other alternative was the loss of millions of lives. And one should not forget the plan of devastating multiple cities with mustard gas, a plan that was favored quite heavily in some circles. That would have been a hundred times worse than the bombs. Apparently we have a different interpretation of historical events.

You are absolutely right and raise another issue which has become a serious problem. For some strange reason in recent memory the idea has taken root that foreign/enemy (by nationality may or may not be combatants) lives should not be taken in the event that Americans can die instead. WTF?

 

[cobber]

For the invasion plan sure, not for anything else. No one is contesting what an invasion would have entailed or that there was an invasion plan. The issue is with the idea that an invasion was going to be the necessary alternative to the bombs.

You're still not getting that this is NOT a matter of FACT, but of ANALYSIS based on what people knew or thought they knew.

The FACT that Japan did not surrender before the A-bombing remains a FACT. Your statement that they WOULD have surrendered anyway is not borne out by any FACTS, but rather a series of ASSERTIONS you have made here. The number of times you repeat your argument does not make it a convincing argument.

An unsourced article that plays out a hypothetical invasion? The argument being made is that an invasion wasn't necessary either, not that it wouldn't have been costly.

You haven't given any sources yet, other than to say there is a "slew" of documents and sources.

Give us your best two or three primary sources, and your best secondary source so we can weigh your argument.

Remember, you're the one advancing a position, so it's your burden of proof and production.

 

[Kagnew]

the idea has taken root that foreign/enemy ... lives should not be taken in the event that Americans can die instead.

Well, sure. Americans are always the bad guys. Didn't you get the memo from Bam-Bam?

 

[cobber]

Well, sure. Americans are always the bad guys. Didn't you get the memo from Bam-Bam?

It really started in the 60s. BHO is just a faint echo of the voices of Revisionism. Very faint, for occupying such a substantial office.

I am curious to see how Leftist historians of the future deconstruct Chairman Obama. I suspect it will be along the lines of the CPC's assessment of Chairman Mao, many errors, but 70% correct.

 

[RugerRog]

If my Dad were alive today he would certainly love to chime in on this and give his point of view, because he had strong opinions on this subject. He enlisted in the Navy at 17 1/2 and fought in the Pacific until the end of the war. He had no love for the Japanese, and he and my Mom had no qualms about the dropping of the bombs regardless of the killing of civilians. To them it was needed to end the war and save countless American Lives. The Japanese had plenty of warning and time to surrender and they did not.

My Parents had a number of friends, who were killed in both Europe and the Pacific, as well as Pearl Harbor. Thankfully, no family members that I ever heard of. My Dad also knew many men who were KIA, and knew of men who were in the Bataan death march. My Mom spoke of a couple men she knew, who after the war who were so distraught they committed suicide in the neighborhood because of what they'd gone through, and that impacted her.

Why dont we ask the men and women who lost their lives at Pearl what they think, or their Moms/Dads/Family/Friends, their thoughts on the dropping of the bombs.

Lets not forget the genocide atrocities the Japanese committed against the Chinese civilians killing an estimated 10 million+, so to compare the approx 240,000 innocent Japanese killed by the bombs is appalling. Lets not forget the war-crimes committed by the Japanese either, or the fact that the Japanese try to hide their past and paint themselves as victims of WWII. What Japanese history lessons leave out. I'm not shedding any tears for those who were killed by the bombs the Japanese made their bed.

Also, if anyone thinks the US should apologize for the dropping of the bombs, that is equally disgusting in my eyes. We owe no one an apology for anything that happened during WWII. "Walter Kozak from WSJ vehemently disagrees with the idea of an apology as well, saying it inverts the stark but critical historical reality: "Focusing on the atomic bombs paints the Japanese as victims, like other participants in World War II. They were not. The Japanese, like their German allies, were bent on global conquest and the destruction of other people who did not fit their bizarre racial theories." Global conquest....should be left to board games.

Wars have been fought through out history, probably as long as there have been humans, with countless lives lost. No person on earth and no country is perfect. Have we made mistakes, yes, are we perfect nope, but I would not live anywhere else, and I'll make no apologies. What happened happened, accept it. It is history and it cant be changed. The people at that time did what they did to preserve the sanctity of freedom, and I could not be any more proud than to say I'm an American.

 

[Jerchap2]

If my Dad were alive today he would certainly love to chime in on this and give his point of view, because he had strong opinions on this subject. He enlisted in the Navy at 17 1/2 and fought in the Pacific until the end of the war. He had no love for the Japanese, and he and my Mom had no qualms about the dropping of the bombs regardless of the killing of civilians. To them it was needed to end the war and save countless American Lives. The Japanese had plenty of warning and time to surrender and they did not.

My Parents had a number of friends, who were killed in both Europe and the Pacific, as well as Pearl Harbor. Thankfully, no family members that I ever heard of. My Dad also knew many men who were KIA, and knew of men who were in the Bataan death march. My Mom spoke of a couple men she knew, who after the war who were so distraught they committed suicide in the neighborhood because of what they'd gone through, and that impacted her.

Why dont we ask the men and women who lost their lives at Pearl what they think, or their Moms/Dads/Family/Friends, their thoughts on the dropping of the bombs.

Lets not forget the genocide atrocities the Japanese committed against the Chinese civilians killing an estimated 10 million+, so to compare the approx 240,000 innocent Japanese killed by the bombs is appalling. Lets not forget the war-crimes committed by the Japanese either, or the fact that the Japanese try to hide their past and paint themselves as victims of WWII. What Japanese history lessons leave out. I'm not shedding any tears for those who were killed by the bombs the Japanese made their bed.

Also, if anyone thinks the US should apologize for the dropping of the bombs, that is equally disgusting in my eyes. We owe no one an apology for anything that happened during WWII. "Walter Kozak from WSJ vehemently disagrees with the idea of an apology as well, saying it inverts the stark but critical historical reality: "Focusing on the atomic bombs paints the Japanese as victims, like other participants in World War II. They were not. The Japanese, like their German allies, were bent on global conquest and the destruction of other people who did not fit their bizarre racial theories." Global conquest....should be left to board games.

Wars have been fought through out history, probably as long as there have been humans, with countless lives lost. No person on earth and no country is perfect. Have we made mistakes, yes, are we perfect nope, but I would not live anywhere else, and I'll make no apologies. What happened happened, accept it. It is history and it cant be changed. The people at that time did what they did to preserve the sanctity of freedom, and I could not be any more proud than to say I'm an American.

Well said. I agree. +1

 

[IndyBeerman]

This might just say it all. How the Atomic Bomb Saved 4,000,000 Lives

I'm digging back a week to pull this quote up.

While I glazed over the article, I think the above is really a understatement because of a ripple effect.

How many lives of today's population in America would not exist if we was forced to land
an invasion force on Japan's soil?

Would anyone in this thread complaining about the dropping of the bombs be around today?

4 Million lives lost over a two or four year time frame is a small number when magnified over 68 years.

How many offspring would not have been born over the three generations in that time frame?

Steveh_131, HoughMade, Jludo and mrjarrell, would you be alive today?

Would your significant other be alive, the next time you are @ work or in a crowd, look to the left and
right and ask yourself would they be alive?

Both of my grandfathers served, my mothers dad was in the Pacific theater for the Navy, my fathers dad
served in Europe and was in route to the Pacific when it ended.

My two grandfathers who could have died in an ensuing invasion would have resulted in over a hundred
lives not being born, including myself, leaving nothing but gravestones that could have read....

Died 1946

 

[octalman]

You're still not getting that this is NOT a matter of FACT, but of ANALYSIS based on what people knew or thought they knew.

The FACT that Japan did not surrender before the A-bombing remains a FACT. Your statement that they WOULD have surrendered anyway is not borne out by any FACTS, but rather a series of ASSERTIONS you have made here. The number of times you repeat your argument does not make it a convincing argument.



You haven't given any sources yet, other than to say there is a "slew" of documents and sources.

Give us your best two or three primary sources, and your best secondary source so we can weigh your argument.

Remember, you're the one advancing a position, so it's your burden of proof and production.

Don't hold your breath waiting for clear and specific identification of sources. More than 60 years later blathering that Japan was on the verge of surrender is utter foolishness. Regardless of how many "high ranking" military officials did not want to use the A-Bomb, the decision was made to use it to end the War. Just achieving the rank of General or Admiral did not mean you were the smartest or always correct. My Dad could tell you about a couple Captains that did not know the Bow of a Destroyer from the Stern. One thought it correct to steam parallel to the winds and waves of a Typhoon.

 

[HenryWallace]

HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE VICTOR

Lest we forget that this goes WAYYY back further...

Commodore Perry and Japan (1853-1854) | Asia for Educators | Columbia University

What if we were to actually prove that we started the conflict, set back, knew Perl Harbor was going to happen and then in turn did nothing to prevent it???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yBd-gZvvsk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HESlrW-tYSA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI23uHg0QFI

My father was in Vietnam, My Grandfather was in WW2, I was slated to be a soldier. I was trained from Day 1 to excel and become an officer. When all was said and done, my grandfather told me that he wanted me instead stay at home and have a family... My father, having a lower rank... and a conscience said the same. I will never regret the direction I had, nor the understanding of what HISTORY has actually said.

I can't look at it dramatically! No emotions in my viewpoint. WAR is terror. WAR is turmoil. WAR is death... it smells, it's dirty, it's impression will last FOREVER! But what we know to have happened is less than "AMERICAN"....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1TnD45tGHo

I do and always will SYMPATHIZE with anyone who will give up there lives for their country, but what if it wasn't for your country. What if it was for $ instead?!

Therein lies the real pain that we suffer. The delusion of accomplishment, in a world of perpetual pain.

I have faith in everyone out there that has a firearm at their side because it's there for you. You are there for those around you. Those around you are continuing your seed, your thought pattern, your understanding, your idiosyncrasies, they are there to perpetuate YOU!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkLE3vj99c

 

[Jludo]

Don't hold your breath waiting for clear and specific identification of sources. More than 60 years later blathering that Japan was on the verge of surrender is utter foolishness. Regardless of how many "high ranking" military officials did not want to use the A-Bomb, the decision was made to use it to end the War. Just achieving the rank of General or Admiral did not mean you were the smartest or always correct. My Dad could tell you about a couple Captains that did not know the Bow of a Destroyer from the Stern. One thought it correct to steam parallel to the winds and waves of a Typhoon.

You're saying that Truman knew best and unilaterally made the correct decision? These were the top Generals and Admirals at the time but the president of only a few months knew better than them what was the militarily correct course of action?
Here are some well sources articles on the subject, if anyone has qualms about a single specific claim I've made, by all means let me know what you think I'm fabricating here.
MILITARY VIEWS About Dropping the Atomic Bomb
William Paterson University - The Obliteration of Hiroshima
Hiroshima: Was It Absolutely Necessary?

 

[Jludo]

I'm digging back a week to pull this quote up.

While I glazed over the article, I think the above is really a understatement because of a ripple effect.

How many lives of today's population in America would not exist if we was forced to land
an invasion force on Japan's soil?

Would anyone in this thread complaining about the dropping of the bombs be around today?

4 Million lives lost over a two or four year time frame is a small number when magnified over 68 years.

How many offspring would not have been born over the three generations in that time frame?

Steveh_131, HoughMade, Jludo and mrjarrell, would you be alive today?

Would your significant other be alive, the next time you are @ work or in a crowd, look to the left and
right and ask yourself would they be alive?

Both of my grandfathers served, my mothers dad was in the Pacific theater for the Navy, my fathers dad
served in Europe and was in route to the Pacific when it ended.

My two grandfathers who could have died in an ensuing invasion would have resulted in over a hundred
lives not being born, including myself, leaving nothing but gravestones that could have read....

Died 1946

This is an extremely poor argument. That's an appeal to emotion + Red herring and probably another logical fallacy all mixed into a bundle.
I could speculate that the bombing killed the person who would go on to develop the cure for cancer or bring world peace, would you find that to be a compelling argument?

 

[CarmelHP]

You're saying that Truman knew best and unilaterally made the correct decision? These were the top Generals and Admirals at the time but the president of only a few months knew better than them what was the militarily correct course of action?
Here are some well sources articles on the subject, if anyone has qualms about a single specific claim I've made, by all means let me know what you think I'm fabricating here.
MILITARY VIEWS About Dropping the Atomic Bomb
William Paterson University - The Obliteration of Hiroshima
Hiroshima: Was It Absolutely Necessary?

Maybe you missed my post a ways back. The Japanese themselves said they weren't ready to surrender even AFTER the bombs were dropped until the Emperor called an end to it rather than face total annihilation of the country. I would think the Japanese themselves knew what they did and did not do. Monday morning quarterbacking by Generals or blame-America-first zealots is less than convincing in the face of what the Japanese said themselves and is rather unsavory.

 

[churchmouse]

Why won't anyone address my point that the Japanese were prepared to surrender given they were allowed to keep their emperor, a condition later met by the allies.

And we were to just believe a nation and a Governing body that slipped up on us during ongoing negotiations for peace and bombed Pearl Harbor into an oil slick.....really.

Stop it. They were not going to set any rules and stipulation on surrender.

As to vaporized children...yes, horrible. If we had continued the on-going incendiary attacks how many would have burned to death slowly. Pick your poison. It is done. The world is forever changed for it.