WOW, idiot shot a dog in a neighborhood.

[youngda9]

Seems you've tried and convicted him by only hearing one side of the story. You said yourself that you talked to everyone except the shooter. A lot can transpire in one minute that you didn't see.

Also, you keep saying that you "presented the facts". Basically what you've presented is some second hand witness statements and a perceived bullet trajectory(you're not CSI).

 

[MikeDVB]

"loose" one turn? What if I want to "tight" one turn? :P

 

[dusterboy49]

Everyone here agreed earlier that the man deserves a fair trial, but he certainly conducted himself in a "questionable" manner. I presented all the facts that I could and based off those he should be at least charged, but what heppens from there is up to a jury and the rest of the facts which I have presented and those which I do not have. You're simply assuming that I'm condemning this man for his actions and have already "convicted" him, which I have not. I saw nothing which would support him in his claims, but it's not for me to judge his guilt. You believing that I have already condemned this man is merely up to your misinterpretation of my text and not indicative of my true feelings on the matter.

Are his actions questionable? YES
Are they illegal? YES, if he cannot JUSTIFY use of deadly force
Did he adequtely provide that justification to the officers? I don't know, he was kept separate from the rest of our depositions, but based on the rest of witnesses depositions, NO he was not justified
Does he deserve to have a fair trial? everyone does
My merely laying out the facts, and those facts reflecting the guilt of the man's wrongful actions are not "my fault." That's what happened, and how it happened. I've not said that he IS guilty, but merely that based of what evidence I witnessed he should be charged. The verdict is for a jury to decide from ALL of the information, not me.

>>This. REP on way.<<<

 

[spasmo]

Where's the dog in the picture?

Looks like a Maltese based on the hair but a Bishon and a Maltese look very similar. We have had 2 Maltese and I still sometimes get the two breeds mixed up just by looking.

 

[the1kidd03]

That is cause you now think like a Combat Veteran, and not a Civilian...

Shoot...
Assess the Persons in the Area...
Secure the Area...
Call for Medics...
Begin the Triage, render First Aid from the most seriously injured that may survive to the least serious...

Does that sum up what you were thinking...

Maybe, I would assume that should be the only "right" thing to do though regardless of my training/experience. Especially in the civilian world, where your actions could land you in legal trouble. Would you not want to prove that doing the harm was not your intent, but rather to protect. Hence, rendering aid after making the situation safe only further proves that you did not have "bad" intentions.

 

[the1kidd03]

So the dog is approximately 75' away. Say the average dog can run around 20 mph that gives you what, about 3.5 seconds to stop the threat if the dog is charging you.

Like Scutter has said I think I will wait to make judgment until all the facts are in.

Agreed, it is for a jury to decide. On the other hand the witnesses that could see the situation said that the dog and family were not near each other or even advancing towards each other. There was some chatter going on when I was trying to help the dog that APPARENTLY, the guy claimed the dog was fighting with another dog and that is why he shot. Since, I was predisposed at the moment I did not personally hear that and so I didn't mention it previously, but my wife said that was the case. If so, then that is even LESS reason for him to discharge his weapon towards a house. But, I was not in the vicinity when he gave his personal deposition to the officer so I don't know what he actually claimed. Also, as I previously pointed out, NONE of the witnesses saw any other dog from any direction when it happened which would at least validate him as not completely lying. My wife also said that when the first person asked him if he shot the dog from across the street, he simply responded by shrugging his shoulders as if to say "I don't know." Again, I was assisting the other guy in helping the dog and didn't witness all of that for myself.

 

[the1kidd03]

Seems you've tried and convicted him by only hearing one side of the story. You said yourself that you talked to everyone except the shooter. A lot can transpire in one minute that you didn't see.

Also, you keep saying that you "presented the facts". Basically what you've presented is some second hand witness statements and a perceived bullet trajectory(you're not CSI).

Again, half of the other witnesses had a clear line of sight to the area in question. I was roughly less than 60 seconds from the second shot to gaining a clear line of sight to the area. When I was able to see the area, there was nobody running away, and the shooter was not in a position that I could observe to indicate he was any closer than when I arrived on the scene. Also, read the post above regarding the "accounts" of his claims which I did not personally hear, but my wife did as she monitored the situation and our own puppy.

I am not a CSI, but I am an engineer and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to draw a line from point A to point B to provide a trajectory of a projectile when there is NO indication of a ricochet.

 

[mtgasten]

So the dog is approximately 75' away. Say the average dog can run around 20 mph that gives you what, about 3.5 seconds to stop the threat if the dog is charging you.

check this out, looks like pitbulls can run faster than that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn-8lC-qDvc

*not that i agree with your opinion, because i still side with the OP but im just trying to play devils advocate here*

 

[the1kidd03]

Again, as a gun owner, shooter, advocate, etc I want more than anything to believe that this man acted in the right because if he didn't he only arms the "anti's" with more "ammo" for their cause. BUT, sadly I saw NOTHING which would support any of his claims or even provide justifiable cause to use the firearm in the given setting. If his excuse to the officers actually was that there were two dogs fighting (which nobody saw a second dog) then he sure as hell should have been charged. Without a threat to him and his family, discharging a weapon was not needed. I'm glad nobody was in the garage/home which he shot towards though.

 

[the1kidd03]

check this out, looks like pitbulls can run faster than that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn-8lC-qDvc

*not that i agree with your opinion, because i still side with the OP but im just trying to play devils advocate here*

LOL, this dog was pretty darn HEFTY. I doubt running was his fortay. Even so, those 5 or 6 witnesses that could see the scene never saw the man/ dog come close to each other. The dog never crossed the street, neither did the man.

 

[Llamaguy]

Being a pitbull is as irrelevant as a man being black. Labs, Shepards, or even beagles can bite and kill. That being said pitbulls are inherently loving unless you misuse them.

 

[mtgasten]

LOL, this dog was pretty darn HEFTY. I doubt running was his fortay. Even so, those 5 or 6 witnesses that could see the scene never saw the man/ dog come close to each other. The dog never crossed the street, neither did the man.

lol oh i know, i never doubted that i just decided to google how fast a pitbull can run and this came up haha

 

[youngda9]

Was the pitbull wearing a hoodie? ...perhaps an overzealous neighboorhood watchman?

 

[williamsburg]

Being a pitbull is as irrelevant as a man being black. Labs, Shepards, or even beagles can bite and kill. That being said pitbulls are inherently loving unless you misuse them.

I totally agree what breed is irrelevant. A dog is a dog just as a bad guy is a bad guy. And yes pitbulls are good natured, I've had a few in my life and known alot that were just 'regular' dogs. They were not vilent. I think they just have a bad rep iin the media bcuz these are 'fighting' dogs. People like to fight these dogs and these fighting dogs are abused and misused thus making them violent. Any dog can be this way. I remember years ago that German Sheppards were the 'breed' to avoid, then it was the Dobermans, then the Rottweilers and Chows. I have noticed that in the media there are two types of dog stories, those involving pitbulls and those involving other dogs. They villainize these dogs in the media and the sheeple just follow this. But if you ask a vet or anyone knowledgable with dogs they will tell you there are several dogs more ill tempered than a pit. Like a Dalmation...and those yapping Chihuahuas...I'd shoot one of them just for there irritating yelping.

But as for the OP. I would hope the dog made it, but i'm sure didn't. If the guy who was doing the shooting was that far away as described, even trying to 'defend' himself or anyone, was showing wreckless behavior if these are the facts as described. Also I agree that if these are the facts that this is a black eye on us responsible gun owners. Hopefully someone can keep us updated on this to see how it does turn out. Most stories as this are not ever reported, and if they are, they are just a quick blurb and forgotten.

 

[singlestacksig]

Neither the officers or myself could identify an area on the driveway that the round could have ricochet'd. Other than that, you're exactly right in the facts that others seem to be misinterpreting.

bullets can be deflected by just hard packed ground..
it is possible that a round passed thru the dog, grazed the ground & skipped up into the garage door .. making an upward looking hole..

ground skips are very common with hand gun rounds..

it does not take a rock or other hard object to change a bullet's path..

given the time between shots, i would think that it was one quick shot for defense, then a 2nd to put down the wounded dog..

 

[the1kidd03]

I totally agree what breed is irrelevant. A dog is a dog just as a bad guy is a bad guy. And yes pitbulls are good natured, I've had a few in my life and known alot that were just 'regular' dogs. They were not vilent. I think they just have a bad rep iin the media bcuz these are 'fighting' dogs. People like to fight these dogs and these fighting dogs are abused and misused thus making them violent. Any dog can be this way. I remember years ago that German Sheppards were the 'breed' to avoid, then it was the Dobermans, then the Rottweilers and Chows. I have noticed that in the media there are two types of dog stories, those involving pitbulls and those involving other dogs. They villainize these dogs in the media and the sheeple just follow this. But if you ask a vet or anyone knowledgable with dogs they will tell you there are several dogs more ill tempered than a pit. Like a Dalmation...and those yapping Chihuahuas...I'd shoot one of them just for there irritating yelping.

But as for the OP. I would hope the dog made it, but i'm sure didn't. If the guy who was doing the shooting was that far away as described, even trying to 'defend' himself or anyone, was showing wreckless behavior if these are the facts as described. Also I agree that if these are the facts that this is a black eye on us responsible gun owners. Hopefully someone can keep us updated on this to see how it does turn out. Most stories as this are not ever reported, and if they are, they are just a quick blurb and forgotten.

I will try. The other man who rendered aid to the dog with me exchanged phone numbers with the owner and told him he wants to know how the dog does, etc. Me and that gentleman also exchanged numbers so he could update me. I also have the responding officer's business card. I think I will call him later today to indicate to him the significant amount of time between the two shots. Not that it necessarily means anything, but it certainly could be pertinent to his investigation and I failed to think of that when talking with him at the scene.

 

[youngda9]

^^ Bullets can also change direction by hitting a dog, or bone.

 

[the1kidd03]

bullets can be deflected by just hard packed ground..
it is possible that a round passed thru the dog, grazed the ground & skipped up into the garage door .. making an upward looking hole..

ground skips are very common with hand gun rounds..

it does not take a rock or other hard object to change a bullet's path..

given the time between shots, i would think that it was one quick shot for defense, then a 2nd to put down the wounded dog..

Agreed, But had the round skipped off the dirt it would have likely hit the brick wall next to the door given the angle necessary to do that and where the round impacted the door. Also, it would have either been pointing in a direction to indicate it came "from left field" or from a lower trajectory, which it did not. It penetrated as a NEARLY parallel to the ground path,but very slightly angled upward in the direction of the shooter. To me this indicated not only the shooters height, but also shooting position because where he was standing in his yard was elevated more so than that of the impact area. Had I been able to put a stick in the hole it would basically be pointing directly towards where the man stood in his yard when I arrived on scene. If it's not too dark when I get home tonight, I will walk my pup and see if I can't take a pic of the hole and put a stick in it to show its trajectory. The house , lukily, was for sale/sold and nobody home at the time.

 

[Eric05]

Mind if I ask where abouts in Avon this happened? I heard a lot of sirens and some comotion going on in the evening while at home.

 

[MikeDVB]

I will be following this thread to see what happens. Do please keep us updated to the best of your ability?