Will You be Convicted of a Crime?

[chocktaw2]

I've received some requests for the next "legal scenario," so here we go:

You have a valid Indiana LTCH. You and your wife have just finished attending a movie at the Circle Center movie theater in downtown Indianapolis. You're walking to your car - which is in a parking garage about 4 blocks from the mall. As you're walking past a particularly dark alley, you hear the words, "give me your money or you're gonna ****'ing die." You look down the alley and can't see much - it's just too dark.

Then you see three dark shapes running toward you - just shadows, really. But you realize that two of those shapes appear to have pistols in their hands. You draw your handgun from a holster and fire four shots - two at each of the shapes. They both go down. The third individual is no longer visible.

You call 911 from your cell phone and report that you were just the victim of an attempted robbery and you defended yourself, out of necessity. You wait for law enforcement to arrive.

While you're waiting, a terrified teenager appears near you, screaming that you just shot his friends - who were just having fun in the alley with squirt guns, "pretending to be gangsters." The cops and EMTs arrive and confirm that two 15 year-olds are dead, holding plastic squirt guns in their hands.

Will you be convicted of a crime?

Guy

No, but you clearing your holster just cost you more money than you've ever seen or ever will see. Financial suicide. , with experience.

 

[85t5mcss]

I still do not change my mind. A good defense attorney is going to convince the jury that these hoolow points "designed to kill" are in fact designed to minimize any potential danger to surrounding people that are innocent. They r not designed to be through and through and possibly hit the kid in the park 2 blocks away.

After all, it's what the attorney's and witnesses can make the jurors see. Reasonable doubt? Sure thing. He walks IF he was even tried.

 

[NIFT]

True! My point is that it shouldn't have - so the system failed on several levels: prosecutor, judge, defense lawyer. At least the conviction was eventually over-turned, after Mr. Fish had been locked for years and was probably broke from legal expenses. Very scary indeed.

Fully agree!
A close friend who has his doctorate in criminal justice has told me the first thing he tells first-year students about the criminal justice "system" is that it isn't!

The criminal justice "system" is like a gun fight--stay as far from it as possible (unless you are a prosecutor or defense attorney )

 

[GuyRelford]

Fully agree!
A close friend who has his doctorate in criminal justice has told me the first thing he tells first-year students about the criminal justice "system" is that it isn't!

The criminal justice "system" is like a gun fight--stay as far from it as possible (unless you are a prosecutor or defense attorney )

Good advice!

 

[96firephoenix]

I've received some requests for the next "legal scenario," so here we go:

You have a valid Indiana LTCH. You and your wife have just finished attending a movie at the Circle Center movie theater in downtown Indianapolis. You're walking to your car - which is in a parking garage about 4 blocks from the mall. As you're walking past a particularly dark alley, you hear the words, "give me your money or you're gonna ****'ing die." You look down the alley and can't see much - it's just too dark.

Then you see three dark shapes running toward you - just shadows, really. But you realize that two of those shapes appear to have pistols in their hands. You draw your handgun from a holster and fire four shots - two at each of the shapes. They both go down. The third individual is no longer visible.

You call 911 from your cell phone and report that you were just the victim of an attempted robbery and you defended yourself, out of necessity. You wait for law enforcement to arrive.

While you're waiting, a terrified teenager appears near you, screaming that you just shot his friends - who were just having fun in the alley with squirt guns, "pretending to be gangsters." The cops and EMTs arrive and confirm that two 15 year-olds are dead, holding plastic squirt guns in their hands.

Will you be convicted of a crime?

Guy

you make a strong case for purchasing this:

 

[T.Lex]

Purchasing an invisible/bluish Glock?

Oh... you mean the Surefire! I haven't found any civilian style holsters that are open enough for the Surefire on a Glock 23. But, I'm open to suggestions.

Ok, but seriously, at the risk of re-directing this thread a bit, I am curious about a narrow point from the training-guys in the thread. Let's tweak the scenario a bit. Dude and wife hear something from the alley, but can't make out what was said. Dude is OC. (Yes, I'm going there.) Dude sees the three figures and what look like guns, and yells out something to the effect of, "Get out of here!" There's some yelling back, including profanity. Dude draws and shoots. After the first two miss, there's return fire. Dude gets killed and wife gets seriously hurt.

The three guys' statements to police say they were just minding their own business on a smoke break from waiting tables when some guy with a gun starts yelling at them about blowing smoke at his wife. Due to the trauma, Wife can't really remember the incident.

Now the narrow point. Does OC potentially operate to allow the Other Guy to say he was in fear first?

 

[finity]

Purchasing an invisible/bluish Glock?

Oh... you mean the Surefire! I haven't found any civilian style holsters that are open enough for the Surefire on a Glock 23. But, I'm open to suggestions.

Ok, but seriously, at the risk of re-directing this thread a bit, I am curious about a narrow point from the training-guys in the thread. Let's tweak the scenario a bit. Dude and wife hear something from the alley, but can't make out what was said. Dude is OC. (Yes, I'm going there.) Dude sees the three figures and what look like guns, and yells out something to the effect of, "Get out of here!" There's some yelling back, including profanity. Dude draws and shoots. After the first two miss, there's return fire. Dude gets killed and wife gets seriously hurt.

The three guys' statements to police say they were just minding their own business on a smoke break from waiting tables when some guy with a gun starts yelling at them about blowing smoke at his wife. Due to the trauma, Wife can't really remember the incident.

Now the narrow point. Does OC potentially operate to allow the Other Guy to say he was in fear first?

I'm not a "training-guy" but I'll offer my .

I think the three guys aren't going to have a problem. There was no threat communicated if the "dude" didn't know what was said. From your scenario the dude was the initial aggressor. The three guys were just defending themselves after being shot at.

It also doesn't hurt the three guys case that they were the only real witnesses left to tell their story.

I don't see how OC hurts or helps in this case. I don't think it would bear on the outcome at all.

 

[Bill B]

Now the narrow point. Does OC potentially operate to allow the Other Guy to say he was in fear first?

I say no. If OC, in itself, isn't grounds for intidmidation then I don't see how it can be grounds for someone to say they were in fear without some other action on the part of the oc'er.

 

[jd42k]

I'd say no for the following reasons.
1. There was a disparity of force. 3 running towards 2.
2. They already stated you were going to f$%^&* die. They threatened you with death and were moving at a rapid rate towards you to enact their threat.

 

[modelflyer2003]

To the OP: Will you be convicted of a crime? Not if you have Jose Baez as a lawyer.

 

[Bill B]

So, what's the answer that you had in mind? I know you always have an interesting case that your scenarios are based on.

 

[Magnum]

This thread has me wanting to buy a light for my 19 now. Every time I hear stories like that AZ jury and the 10mm/JHP bullets it reinforces in my mind to keep my gun where it is unless I am damn sure my life is over if I don't get it out. It is literally disgusting just how many cases of self-defense have gone awry in court. I really like provocative questions like this, keep them coming!

 

[JBob77]

I still do not change my mind. A good defense attorney is going to convince the jury that these hoolow points "designed to kill" are in fact designed to minimize any potential danger to surrounding people that are innocent. They r not designed to be through and through and possibly hit the kid in the park 2 blocks away.

After all, it's what the attorney's and witnesses can make the jurors see. Reasonable doubt? Sure thing. He walks IF he was even tried.

Repped Thought the Exact same thing!!

 

[kludge]

Harold Fish was freed after appeals. And three years in jail.

Harold Fish to be Freed From Prison After Three-Year Stay for Shooting; No New Trial to be Held - Phoenix News - Valley Fever

 

[Phil502]

I'd say get a good lawyer and no conviction. The 3 pretended to rob you and your wife, one readily admits it, thats as good as them "actually" doing it. If anything the whole pretending thing should be examined.

Not a good idea to shoot into a dark alley at that distance, those people running could have been people running away from the robbers. I guess that would be a "have to be there" kind of situation though.

 

[88GT]

Rule 4: Be aware of your target and what is behind it. Shooting in this scenario is negligent. I'd probably just run if I wasn't even sure of who was trying to rob me.

Yes, Your Honor, I was very aware that my target(s) were maximizing the cover of the shadows to hide their identity while they shouted profanities and threats at me and my wife and advance on us with the intent to do harm.

In that situation I might draw (both gun and flashlight) but I would not shoot until im sure of my target.

Since we're Monday-morning quarterbacking, have you considered the fact that (a) you might not have the time luxury of waiting for confirmed target identification and (b) you might not have the possibility of confirmed target identification at all? An alley at night that isn't lit with street light (and most aren't) is going to provide darn good "cover of darkness" to the advancing threat right up to you.

So I guess I'm curious, at what point do you decide you have to shoot or risk bodily harm/death knowing that you CAN'T identify your target?

I dont think you'd be convicted.

But, I may rethink carrying a gun knowing I shot and killed 2 innocent people, even if I thought my life was in danger.

So the next time you have NO option and possibly end up dead? What kind of thought process is that?

Every round that comes out of my firearm I am responsible for.

Sure, but you are not responsible for 3 yoots misrepresenting reality for their own personal gain and acting accordingly. You are not required to be all-knowing when you carry a gun. You are simply required to be reasonable.

Be absolutely sure of your target and what's around, behind and to the side of your target. I would not open fire on dark shadows.

So I'll ask you too: and if you can't confirm their identity intentions before they reach you, are you willing to put your life on the line--or more importantly, your wife's?

This is not a logical application of the gun safety rules.

 

[lrahm]

No armchair quarterbacks. You have to go with what you have at the moment the incident happens. You can't say, I wish I would have done this. If the young man is truthful then you might have to carry a burden BUT!!!, your perception of an robbery is not only truthful but they have demonstrated that they intended to do something. The young man's statement is not credible given the other facts. The fact that you feard for your own safety was valid and that you took this as an actual robbery. Tons of robberies are committed each day with a fake gun or no gun at all.I honestly feel that you were justified.

He who hesitates is lost.

 

[kludge]

Even in broad daylight I would challenge, nay defy, anyone to identify a real gun vs a realistic looking squirt gun (i.e. one that's not bright green or hot pink, etc.) while a person is yelling threats and running toward you.

 

[jbombelli]

I've seen bright green and pink duracoated guns. They were real.

 

[lrahm]

About 10 years ago Colt was makeing their combat commander in a bright blue and one in red. Very nice looking.