Wife approached in vehicle

[Double T]

The accelerator is more than acceptable. Drive the hell away. no need to endanger your kids, or have CPS take them while you go off in cuffs.

 

[MickeyBlueEyes]

Here is an example of how not to handle a vehicle to vehicle confrontation.

ISP] Road Rage Results in Arrest
Start Date: 10/25/2011End Date: 10/25/2011Entry Description
Lake County, Indiana-Yesterday afternoon, Indiana State Police troopers responded to a call about someone pointing a firearm at another vehicle during a road rage incident.
Yesterday, Monday, October 24th, at approximately 3:11 p.m., Indiana State Police Lowell Post dispatch received a call about a motorist who pointed a firearm at another vehicle. The caller remained on the telephone line with the dispatcher and was following the offending vehicle. The caller gave a description of the vehicle with an empty trailer in tow.
Sergeant Lee Wright and Senior Trooper Dan Avitia located the vehicle; a 1999 gray Dodge pick-up with a trailer in tow and stopped the vehicle at I-80 east bound at the 19 mile marker (this is by the Portage exit).
When the driver was asked if he had a firearm in his truck he stated he did. A semi automatic weapon was located in the rear passenger compartment on the center floor board behind the center console. It was loaded but there was no round in the chamber.
The driver, John M. Hochstedler, 50 of Niles, Michigan denied pointing a firearm at another motorist.
The victim, from Portage, Indiana, stated they were traveling east bound on I-80 at Grant Street in the center left lane when Hochstedler was next to them in the center right lane. They stated that Hochstedler attempted to change lanes into their lane and they honked their horn to warn Hochstedler that he was about to hit their car. The victim stated they were unable to change lanes when Hochstedler tried to come over because of heavy traffic. The victim stated that Hochstedler caught up with their vehicle and was traveling side by side with them. The victim was able to see Hochstedler (the driver) clearly as he extended his middle finger. The victim then returned the gesture.
The victim then stated they put distance between their vehicle and Hochstedler when they saw the pick-up “zipping” in and out of traffic in an attempt to catch up with them.

Hochstedler then pulled his vehicle alongside the victim’s vehicle where they saw Hochstedler moving his lips and making angry facial expressions. They also observed he was holding his steering wheel with his left hand and holding a firearm in his right, pointing directly at the victim.
The victim was able to give a description of the driver, vehicle and the firearm to the troopers.
Hochstedler was taken to the Lake County J.ail and charged with Intimidation with a Deadly Weapon, a Class C Felony.
All suspects are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

 

[redpitbull44]

You pull a gun, you are pulling it to kill, not maim, scare or incapacitate..

If you're ever on trial for a self-defense shooting, I hope you don't tell the jury this. You shoot to stop the threat. If the bad guy dies from his wounds, that's too bad, but your objective shouldn't be to kill. That won't be received well. =)

You are confusing intent with purpose and capability of the tool.
In the armed confrontations I've been in, the intent of me pulling my gun was to stop the threat. The tool used was a deadly weapon with the capability to kill. That fact should never be forgotten, nor should it be taken lightly. Of course the statistics show that most people shot with handguns survive, but that is beside the point. I don't ever want to kill anyone. If I am pulling my gun, it is because I have no other option, and death of whoever is accosting me is the best solution to stop the threat they pose. Also, as with everything, each and every situation is different. Knowing the law, and how to interpret the law is essential these days.

I would hope their attorney would advise them as such if they were to go on the stand.

As is their job.

 

[MikeDVB]

Why do we need a stand your ground doctrine, then? Let's just call it a day and say a reasonable person has a duty to retreat, whether confronted with a serious threat or an annoying cretin.

Screw this guy. I'm turning left. He can wait. If he attacks me or my car, he has problems.

As with anything, you have options. Just because you have a gun does not mean you have to use it. Just because you can stand your ground does not necessarily mean that you should. It varies from situation to situation.

If I were in my home, for example, and somebody were breaking in - I would do what I had to do to defend myself rather than trying to run/hide/escape. In a situation where I'm out in public and I can avoid firing my weapon - I will take it.

IMHO, avoidance (if possible) is always better than shooting and/or killing somebody. This isn't to say you legally have to avoid (it's up to you what you do, and up to me what I do in any given situation). I won't press on you what you should do, or judge you for your actions or opinions, however I am happy to discuss them .

If the guy were to attack my car and I didn't feel *I* was in danger, I would likely do my best to get away from him, and identify him (i.e. his license plate, vehicle make/model/year, description, etc) and call the police and report what happened. I carry full coverage insurance for all kinds of issues from hail to idiots doing damage to my vehicle in a parking lot (it's happened). If the perpetrator is identified, the insurance company will go after them to recover the damages.

If he busted out my driver side window and I had no route of escape, then the situation would be entirely different. Another example is if he were walking up to my car with a tire iron or other weapon in his hand, that would definitely be an escalation from the start.

It's nice to armchair quarterback all of this, but without being in the situation all I can do is speculate .

 

[mrortega]

Here is an example of how not to handle a vehicle to vehicle confrontation.

ISP] Road Rage Results in Arrest
Start Date: 10/25/2011End Date: 10/25/2011Entry Description
Lake County, Indiana-Yesterday afternoon, Indiana State Police troopers responded to a call about someone pointing a firearm at another vehicle during a road rage incident.
Yesterday, Monday, October 24th, at approximately 3:11 p.m., Indiana State Police Lowell Post dispatch received a call about a motorist who pointed a firearm at another vehicle. The caller remained on the telephone line with the dispatcher and was following the offending vehicle. The caller gave a description of the vehicle with an empty trailer in tow.
Sergeant Lee Wright and Senior Trooper Dan Avitia located the vehicle; a 1999 gray Dodge pick-up with a trailer in tow and stopped the vehicle at I-80 east bound at the 19 mile marker (this is by the Portage exit).
When the driver was asked if he had a firearm in his truck he stated he did. A semi automatic weapon was located in the rear passenger compartment on the center floor board behind the center console. It was loaded but there was no round in the chamber.
The driver, John M. Hochstedler, 50 of Niles, Michigan denied pointing a firearm at another motorist.
The victim, from Portage, Indiana, stated they were traveling east bound on I-80 at Grant Street in the center left lane when Hochstedler was next to them in the center right lane. They stated that Hochstedler attempted to change lanes into their lane and they honked their horn to warn Hochstedler that he was about to hit their car. The victim stated they were unable to change lanes when Hochstedler tried to come over because of heavy traffic. The victim stated that Hochstedler caught up with their vehicle and was traveling side by side with them. The victim was able to see Hochstedler (the driver) clearly as he extended his middle finger. The victim then returned the gesture.
The victim then stated they put distance between their vehicle and Hochstedler when they saw the pick-up “zipping” in and out of traffic in an attempt to catch up with them.

Hochstedler then pulled his vehicle alongside the victim’s vehicle where they saw Hochstedler moving his lips and making angry facial expressions. They also observed he was holding his steering wheel with his left hand and holding a firearm in his right, pointing directly at the victim.
The victim was able to give a description of the driver, vehicle and the firearm to the troopers.
Hochstedler was taken to the Lake County J.ail and charged with Intimidation with a Deadly Weapon, a Class C Felony.
All suspects are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

You all are missing the real story. With a name like "Hochstedler" the guy is obviously Amish and finally went nuts looking at women dressed in brown, black or purple. He hot wired a truck and was on a joy ride and found the gun. Not knowing what it was he was attempting to show it to the folks so they could help him. Sheesh.

 

[MikeDVB]

Yeah, that's no good... If you have anger management issues and find yourself regularly in road rage - you probably should work on that before carrying imho.

 

[cobber]

As with anything, you have options. Just because you have a gun does not mean you have to use it. Just because you can stand your ground does not necessarily mean that you should. It varies from situation to situation.

[edit]

If he busted out my driver side window and I had no route of escape, then the situation would be entirely different. Another example is if he were walking up to my car with a tire iron or other weapon in his hand, that would definitely be an escalation from the start.

It's nice to armchair quarterback all of this, but without being in the situation all I can do is speculate .

I'm turning left. He can like it or lump it. He would be well-advised to remain in his vehicle.

I never said anything about drawing a firearm.

That being said, his exiting his vehicle and approaching my wife, with my kids in the car, is simply unacceptable behavior. Sure it may be better for us to run away from these situations, but I wonder what lesson that teaches the aggressive idiot who made us run? Are they likely to alter their behavior when we give them what they want?

Again, I didn't mention drawing a gun at all. There's a lot of jumping to conclusions in these threads.

All of the psychoanalyzing about 'anger issues' reminds me of all the do-gooders and the proliferation of social services and counseling that is being foisted off on our society these days. A person who gets angry at some ******* in this situation does not have an anger management problem. This is a totally normal response. It's also totally normal for the OP's wife to come home and vent. To jump from those normal emotional responses, to predictions that certain persons are too violent to carry arms, is totally baseless.

 

[MikeDVB]

I'm turning left. He can like it or lump it. He would be well-advised to remain in his vehicle.

Good.

I never said anything about drawing a firearm.

Didn't say you did as far as I see, just saying you can handle the situation in a way that you feel is best. If you quote a passage where I said that you said it - then I will go ahead and apologize as maybe I misunderstood. I'm not above admitting I'm wrong, but I'm also not going to go back through and re-read the entire discussion over to make sure I did or didn't say something you think I may have said that you said.

That being said, his exiting his vehicle and approaching my wife, with my kids in the car, is simply unacceptable behavior. Sure it may be better for us to run away from these situations, but I wonder what lesson that teaches the aggressive idiot who made us run? Are they likely to alter their behavior when we give them what they want?

My goal in life is not to educate the idiots, but to survive and prosper. Your goals and objectives may vary and the way you handle any given situation may be different.

If you ask me, they should remove the warning labels from everything and let survival of the fittest weed out the idiots... Don't see that happening anytime soon.

Again, I didn't mention drawing a gun at all. There's a lot of jumping to conclusions in these threads.

I don't see where I said that you said you should/would/need to draw your weapon or where I specifically suggested it. I did acknowledge it was an option but I didn't specifically say whether it was a good option or not. I'm not jumping to any conclusions that I can tell, but you're welcome to point it out if I am. I mean... I never listed jumping out of your car, climbing on the roof, and beating your chest like a gorilla as an option either nor did I say that you did - but that doesn't mean you can't if you feel that's the thing to do .

All of the psychoanalyzing about 'anger issues' reminds me of all the do-gooders and the proliferation of social services and counseling that is being foisted off on our society these days. A person who gets angry at some ******* in this situation does not have an anger management problem. This is a totally normal response. It's also totally normal for the OP's wife to come home and vent. To jump from those normal emotional responses, to predictions that certain persons are too violent to carry arms, is totally baseless.

Never said venting was bad, just saying that "I probably would have shot them if I had a gun," is not the right mindset for somebody carrying a gun. I think we all are on the same page that this was a no-shoot situation, but obviously opinions will vary.

No need to get quite so defensive, just trying to discuss the intricacies of this incident and the opinions presented thereafter. If I'm upsetting you, I do apologize .

 

[cobber]

Good.

edit

No need to get quite so defensive, just trying to discuss the intricacies of this incident and the opinions presented thereafter. If I'm upsetting you, I do apologize .

I'm not feeling that defensive. No apology necessary!

It's just a discussion after all...

 

[MikeDVB]

I'm not feeling that defensive. No apology necessary!

It's just a discussion after all...

Indeed, just seems people around here can get really bent out of shape really quick for almost no reason - so I try to make sure they don't on account of my posts.

 

[Kutnupe14]

There is no brandishing law in Indiana. Only a law against pointing a weapon at someone which is a felony if it's loaded. This is only if you are not acting in self defense though.

IC 35-47-4-3
Pointing firearm at another person
Sec. 3. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting within the scope of the law enforcement officer's official duties or to a person who is justified in using reasonable force against another person under:
(1) IC 35-41-3-2; or
(2) IC 35-41-3-3.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally points a firearm at another person commits a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if the firearm was not loaded.

There's no need for such a law, as "brandishing" falls neatly into intimidation.

 

[HangmanAV]

Thanks for all of your responses. We will be looking for some pepper spray and training. And just to clarify, my wife doesn't have an anger problem. She was just upset because it involved our girls. She went into "momma bear" mode and was venting to me. I will agree that avoiding the situation is priority #1. I carry anywhere I legally can but hope I never ever have to use my weapon, which I believe is everyone's goal as well.

 

[88GT]

She survived and I presume there was no injuries to anybody ... so that's a very bad mindset to have imho. The gun should be the last resort.

***snip***

The whole "If I had a gun, I would probably have shot somebody..." mindset is not the right mindset to have if you carry.

As OP has stated.....

Thanks for all of your responses. We will be looking for some pepper spray and training. And just to clarify, my wife doesn't have an anger problem. She was just upset because it involved our girls. She went into "momma bear" mode and was venting to me. I will agree that avoiding the situation is priority #1. I carry anywhere I legally can but hope I never ever have to use my weapon, which I believe is everyone's goal as well.

it's called hyperbole. Women generally use it more often than men, and it's a cathartic measure. She wouldn't really have drawn a firearm and shot the douche. She doesn't even really wish she would have. It's just venting.

I say I'm gonna run over little vehicles who don't get out of my way on a daily basis. To date I haven't. (Can't say the same for Mr88GT though.)

I tell my kids if they leave the backyard, I'll kill 'em. I won't.

 

[MikeDVB]

it's called hyperbole. Women generally use it more often than men, and it's a cathartic measure. She wouldn't really have drawn a firearm and shot the douche. She doesn't even really wish she would have. It's just venting.

I have no way of knowing in what sense it was really said as a third person account in a text based medium doesn't do a good job of conveying emotion . I, in this case, would presume the worst and hope for the best.

I say I'm gonna run over little vehicles who don't get out of my way on a daily basis. To date I haven't. (Can't say the same for Mr88GT though.)

Haha, I guess I tend to make it a habit to not make empty threats or remarks that I don't fully intend to carry out. However unlikely it may be, I never want to end up on the stand after defending myself to have somebody be called as a character witness and testify that I regularly say "If I had my gun on me, I would have shot them." Hyperbole or not, it could be damaging .

I tell my kids if they leave the backyard, I'll kill 'em. I won't.

And there are police/child services/prosecutors I am sure that would try and take your kids from you and put you in jail... Is that the norm? No, but I wouldn't put it past people these days.

Now don't get me wrong, do what you want and say what you want - not passing judgement in any way .

 

[Sling10mm]

My brother had a vaguely similar situation. He had passed an elderly "gentleman" and then stopped at a signal. The guy got out of his car with a hammer and started approaching my brothers car, apparently angry at being passed. My brother is a pretty cool pickle and just leaned out of his window and told the guy he needed to get back in his car, which he did.

I told my brother that was a good way for the guy to get shot if it had been someone else (my brother doesn't even own a gun).

Sling

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

it's called hyperbole. Women generally use it more often than men, and it's a cathartic measure. She wouldn't really have drawn a firearm and shot the douche. She doesn't even really wish she would have. It's just venting.

I say I'm gonna run over little vehicles who don't get out of my way on a daily basis. To date I haven't. (Can't say the same for Mr88GT though.)

I tell my kids if they leave the backyard, I'll kill 'em. I won't.

^^

When women say they "would have" done something, it often does not literally mean they would have... It is generally a mechanism used to help them move past an event...

 

[BigMoose]

This is all too common I am afraid. I have had four runs ins in the city, And a two of the run ins have been with those groups of motorbike riders on East Street in Indianapolis. It's too easy to get off a bike and go complain at someone.

As always, get the heck out of there. Do what you can, break traffic laws if you have too.

One time a group of bikers pulled up behind me in a left turn lane and I saw one get off and walk up to me shaking his fists. From looking at the lights I knew I had gotten in the turn lane too late to have triggered the left turn arrow, so I came up with an idea. When the main SB green lit, I drop launched the car. Thats when you have your left foot on the brake and the right slightly on the accelerator. When the main lanes green light went, i was able to beat the cars in the drive lanes out by a million miles. Most people take a ton of time to start moving on a green, particularly in todays gadget culture. I caught him far away from his bike and I think he got a short shower up rubber.

Be aware of your surroundings in a car, memorize how the local traffic devices work. Know how long from opposing lane yellow to your green, or when a light will drop. it could save your life. Those pedestrian crosswalk counters are awesome... I was able to drag my feet one so that another anrgy biker gang had to stop because the light went red and the rest of the gang stopped. The rest stopped and circled back.

Lord knows why I had so much trouble with those gangs. But I wasn't the only one. I have heard stories about them before. One thing is for sure, a bike is like a beer can to a car.

A feint that your going to sideswipe someone that's following you harassing you usually does the trick too

A gun in a car is not too useful in my opinion, like the guy says in that vid, V8 beats 45 every time.

 

[ddavidson]

I agree that avoidance is the obviously first choice. One on hand, yeah, maybe the guy can eff off because I want to turn left. As soon as he gets out of the car, it's time to GO. I think it's very possible, even likely, that you aren't going to be able to see what someone may have as a weapon that is approaching your vehicle, which I think makes it even more important to get out of there.

This is where a little defensive driving comes in. I took a motorcycle safety course one time (ABATE) and one thing they did very well was teach defensive driving. That is, always have an out. In this situation, it was to turn right and go. I regularly think about how I'm going to respond with my vehicle if this or that happens.

 

[88GT]

I have no way of knowing in what sense it was really said as a third person account in a text based medium doesn't do a good job of conveying emotion . I, in this case, would presume the worst and hope for the best.

Haha, I guess I tend to make it a habit to not make empty threats or remarks that I don't fully intend to carry out. However unlikely it may be, I never want to end up on the stand after defending myself to have somebody be called as a character witness and testify that I regularly say "If I had my gun on me, I would have shot them." Hyperbole or not, it could be damaging .

And there are police/child services/prosecutors I am sure that would try and take your kids from you and put you in jail... Is that the norm? No, but I wouldn't put it past people these days.

Now don't get me wrong, do what you want and say what you want - not passing judgement in any way .

What's worse hyperbole or lying? No judgment? Then why the need to lecture me?

 

[mtgasten]

What's worse hyperbole or lying? No judgment? Then why the need to lecture me?

i agree, the whole message was directed as judgement obviously, and the smiley faces were a direct condescension directed towards you, i don't appreciate stuff like that and i'm certain you don't either