Why using Range ammo for self defense is a bad idea

[BehindBlueI's]

I carry Monarch HP 9mm in my Ruger LC9. Cheap but works every time.

I understand over penetration issues with ball ammo for self defense, but yeah, "good enough for NATO", or "good enough for the US Army" actually is good enough for me.

Of course, that assumes that 9mm ball actually is good enough for NATO as opposed to cheapest/politically acceptable and the fact that pistols are an afterthought to an afterthought for military personnel.

Ball penetrates less than JHP, consistently glances off skulls/round bone at less of an angle, and does less damage to the struck target. I can sort of understand ball in a .380, but there's no legit reason to carry ball in a 9mm unless the law requires it. Even then, I think SWC would be the better option for most situations.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Ball penetrates less than JHP, consistently glances off skulls/round bone at less of an angle,

Had a gun take a .32 (lrn) to the head from muzzle contact range (just a gorgeous Smith I-frame). Bounced off like a superball off a brick wall.

 

[rhino]

Regardless of what ammo you choose for personal defense, please consider doing the following before charging your magazines:

1. Visually inspect each and every round before you insert into a magazine. Make sure there are not deformities of the case or the bullet, that the overall length is comparable to the rest of the rounds in the box, and that it has a primer pocket with a primer properly seated in it.
2. Check each and every round before you insert into a magazine with a case gauge or the remove the barrel of your gun and use its chamber to check the rounds. They should drop into and out of the gauge/chamber without sticking.

I have seen fewer issues with premium defensive ammo than I have with cheap FMJ range ammo, but fewer doesn't mean zero. In the past I've found several rounds of Speer .45ACP 230gr Gold Dots that would not gauge properly. I've seen a few of various brands where the bullet was obviously set-back into the case far enough to potentially cause issues with both overpressure as well as feeding/function. It takes time to inspect, but it's worth the time.

Before you do that, make sure that your specific ammo functions 100% in your gun with your magazines. The old 200 rounds rule of thumb is probably a good idea, but at least a magazine-ful or two would be prudent. Change anything in the combination of your ammo, your gun, your magazines? Probably need to verify function again.

 

[Spear Dane]

Winchester Defend 147. Train with the Winchester 147 Train.

 

[STEEL CORE]

I agree, however, Murphy's Law can come into play at any time.

 

[jamil]

I typically use Speer Gold Dot 147 gr. I may switch to Federal HST though when I run low. I don't see Speer as available locally as as I used to.

Regardless of what ammo you choose for personal defense, please consider doing the following before charging your magazines:

1. Visually inspect each and every round before you insert into a magazine. Make sure there are not deformities of the case or the bullet, that the overall length is comparable to the rest of the rounds in the box, and that it has a primer pocket with a primer properly seated in it.
2. Check each and every round before you insert into a magazine with a case gauge or the remove the barrel of your gun and use its chamber to check the rounds. They should drop into and out of the gauge/chamber without sticking.

I have seen fewer issues with premium defensive ammo than I have with cheap FMJ range ammo, but fewer doesn't mean zero. In the past I've found several rounds of Speer .45ACP 230gr Gold Dots that would not gauge properly. I've seen a few of various brands where the bullet was obviously set-back into the case far enough to potentially cause issues with both overpressure as well as feeding/function. It takes time to inspect, but it's worth the time.

Before you do that, make sure that your specific ammo functions 100% in your gun with your magazines. The old 200 rounds rule of thumb is probably a good idea, but at least a magazine-ful or two would be prudent. Change anything in the combination of your ammo, your gun, your magazines? Probably need to verify function again.

I do inspect before using, but my routine isn't that detailed. When I buy a new box, I'll visually inspect and then mark the box. Then when I need to load a mag I load from a box of pre-inspected. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to use the barrel's chamber as part of that. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[BugI02]

General question to the thread. Do we know SD ammo gets better quality control or just assume so? Does data of exist from objective scientific testing?

 

[NyleRN]

I don't shoot WWB target ammo. I shoot federal FMJ exclusively at the range or in the 2 gun courses. My carry round is the HST 124gr

 

[2A_Tom]

Dont hate on the WWB. Ive run thousands through my glocks and 1911 and no appreciable problems.

And its not as dirty as some whine about.



(But no, ANY FMJ in a defensive pistol is a bad idea.)

I agree. I have fired hundreds of WWB through my 1911 and had a stove pipe once when it was new. I carry Hornady Critical Duty.

I carry Monarch HP 9mm in my Ruger LC9. Cheap but works every time.

I understand over penetration issues with ball ammo for self defense, but yeah, "good enough for NATO", or "good enough for the US Army" actually is good enough for me.

A good hit can disable a non determined attacker. it may take many good hits to stop s determined one.

My understanding of the agreements reached at the Hague and Geneva conventions is that these rounds are intended to wound and not necessarily kill. It cost's the enemy government many times more resources to treat a wounded soldier than a dead one.

Granted, I'm not an expert on this topic, this info comes from reading a few resources on line.... If this is indeed true, then it's not good enough for me. If I'm faced with the desperate decision of pulling the trigger on a bad guy, I plan on being the only one left to tell the story. Hopefully this theory will never have to be tested.

Do you think FMJ ammo would exist if not for the military's need to abide by these agreements?

Actually Hague outlawed dum dum bullets made by cutting a cross in the tip of soft lead bullits. By extension expanding bullits are ouylawed because they cause severe tissue damage and are concidered in humane for warefare.

Give me the bullit that causes severe tissue damage for EDSDC.

 

[bulletsmith]

I agree. I have fired hundreds of WWB through my 1911 and had a stove pipe once when it was new. I carry Hornady Critical Duty.



A good hit can disable a non determined attacker. it may take many good hits to stop s determined one.



Actually Hague outlawed dum dum bullets made by cutting a cross in the tip of soft lead bullits. By extension expanding bullits are ouylawed because they cause severe tissue damage and are concidered in humane for warefare.

Give me the bullit that causes severe tissue damage for EDSDC.

I've found a few references that say that, but as you look at documents that are closer to transcripts than interpretations, the language seems a little more general. Take a look at this one on page 3 just below the center of the page.

 

[KJQ6945]

Quality ammo is just that, it's about the quality, not the sale price. Buy good guns, shoot good ammo.

FMJ ammo has probably killed more people than hollow points, due mostly to war. It has a purpose, but it's generally not for EDC.

 

[Alamo]

The knock I would have against using ammo intended for target practice, punching paper or making steel ring, is not that it might over penetrate so much as might not have enough oomph at all. I used to use Blazer aluminum 115 gr a lot for classes and target shooting, and it was great -- cheap (lordy, used to buy it for couple dollars a box!) and reliable and I didn't feel compelled to save every case for reloading. But at once class we had some swinging iron, and I discovered the blazer aluminum just did not have enough zip to move metal. I had to switch to my SD stuff for that.

After that I chono'd some of my carry SD ammo and several brands of target ammo, and the target ammo tended to have lower measured velocity, as opposed to what it said on the box, and greater variability in the velocity. The premium SD ammo was much more consistent, and every round had some speed to it (which leads me to believe that yes the manufacturers put extra care into their premium ammo). This doesn't matter much for paper or (non-moving) steel, but for hostile targets, you need some energy. With 9mm you have fairly lightweight bullets, so the only way to get energy up is to crank up the velocity, so target ammo is not the way to go, never mind what kind of bullet it is pushing.

I wouldn't feel too bad about using actual NATO spec 9mm, but it really needs to be NATO spec velocity, consistent from round to round.

As far the military using FMJ:

Yes the Geneva convention(s) are in play, but also when the militaries started moving to magazine and belt fed weapons, reliability of semi- and full-auto function became a critical criteria, and this included not only feeding but fouling of the gun. For decades this has meant FMJ, especially in handguns. Reliability (even in self-defense) far out-trumps expansion and "energy dump" and skipping off skulls and all that. Considering that most military small arms ammo doesn't strike the enemy anyway, not a lot of incentive to use fancy bullets in basic small arms. Save that for the niche players like snipers and special forces.

The Browning Hi Power was probably the most widely used military handgun in the world until recently, and its original design did not like hollowpoints at all- but it ran beautifully with FMJ, because it was a military gun. The feed ramps have since been modified at FN to handle modern ammo, but it wasn't so many years ago that the first thing you did with a Hi Power to get it ready for EDC was take out the magazine disconnect and get rid of the "hump" in the feed ramp - if you wanted to use hollowpoints.

Likewise I remember when I was younger and still a revolver guy reading of the same thing with 1911s -- there were a lot of them that didn't feed reliably out of the box with hollowpoints and had to be fiddled with if you wanted HPs. .45ACP FMJ and 1911s were designed for each other to be reliable. There were a lot of comments back then that with a 230gr .45 inch bullet you didn't need a hollowpoint to make a big hole and shake him up, so a lot of guys weren't interested in HPs anyway.

Reliably feeding, reliably expanding 9mm hollowpoints are really a fairly recent phenomena, and it is good we can take advantage of them, but to sum up, my reason to stay away from target ammo for SD is based on reliability in velocity and manufacture. Any manufactured product can have ringer in the box, but I think premium SD ammo is higher quality stuff.

 

[halfmileharry]

I've been carrying a 1911 for over 40 years and until the last couple of years I always used FMJ 230gr military surplus ammo.
I never worried about the bullet not doing the damage it was meant to do.

With the present FMJ stuff I wouldn't trust it for edc ammo. I've gone to the Federal Premium HST 230 + and for my G19 I'll use the 147gr HST +P or the Federal Hydrashock low recoil 135gr. My 19 shoots both extremely accurate and the bullet design does major damage. I tested it out on roasts and hams. It will tear up some meat.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

General question to the thread. Do we know SD ammo gets better quality control or just assume so? Does data of exist from objective scientific testing?

Depends on brand. Speer lawman, for example, has been extremely consistent over a chrono for me. Through my Sig, the .40 has had deviations of less than 25 fps with 6 shot strings.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I got my HST's for $25/box 50 from SG Ammo. ]

Two thumbs up for SGAmmo.

Depends on brand. Speer lawman, for example, has been extremely consistent over a chrono for me. Through my Sig, the .40 has had deviations of less than 25 fps with 6 shot strings.

Thanks for the chrono verification, BBI. I've always found Speer Lawman to be high quality consistent range ammo AND very consistent with the equivalent weight Gold Dot SD ammo. A good practice and SD combination. It's what I settled on to run in my Glock 17 and S&W Shield 9.

 

[Tactically Fat]

(Also note, the USA did not sign the portion of the Hague Conventions that forbids the use of HP/JHP ammunition in wartime/conflicts. And rightfully so.)

 

[seagullplayer]

I have always found it a good habit to check all ammo when loading any firearm for any reason.
You don't catch everything that could be wrong, but what you find is worth the effort, plus its free...

 

[HoughMade]

Using range ammo for self defense as a cost cutting measure?

I'm sure I'll open myself up to all manner of internet expert criticism, but here goes.

I use Hornady Critical Defense. When i first got my current EDC, an M&P 9c, I ran about 3 or 4 boxes of Critical defense through it after the first 100 rounds of range ammo to make sure it would function. It did. Since then, I run through about a box a year of the Critical Defense with all my other shooting being with various range ammos from Rem/UMC to WWB, to Blazer Brass and Aluminum, to American Eagle, to whatever else I can find at a decent price.

...but the 9c is always loaded with Critical Defense, 12+1 with an extra 17 in a spare mag, everywhere but the range.

What's a box of Critical Defense? $25? C'mon- $25 a year. I spend more than that on Altoids.

 

[2A_Tom]

Hough, I carry HCD and .45 is 23.99 at cabellas that's the only thing they charge less for than anyone else.

 

[rhino]

Using range ammo for self defense as a cost cutting measure?

I'm sure I'll open myself up to all manner of internet expert criticism, but here goes.

I use Hornady Critical Defense. When i first got my current EDC, an M&P 9c, I ran about 3 or 4 boxes of Critical defense through it after the first 100 rounds of range ammo to make sure it would function. It did. Since then, I run through about a box a year of the Critical Defense with all my other shooting being with various range ammos from Rem/UMC to WWB, to Blazer Brass and Aluminum, to American Eagle, to whatever else I can find at a decent price.

...but the 9c is always loaded with Critical Defense, 12+1 with an extra 17 in a spare mag, everywhere but the range.

What's a box of Critical Defense? $25? C'mon- $25 a year. I spend more than that on Altoids.

You can get the Hornady Critical Duty 135gr 9mm (+P or std) for under $30 for a box of 50 rounds online.