Why DON'T you take any firearms training classes?

[Coach]

The Chinese are very wise.

Yes they are! My mom told me so.

 

[jeremy]

The inverse is also true. Just because the instructor has mixed it up wearing blue or a salad suit does not mean that he or she is a teacher.

Yup...

That is why I heckle and do not teach...

 

[Wabatuckian]

I'll answer these for myself, because many of them apply. I suppose the Marine can jump in when he wants:

In your opinion, is an instructor (of defensive arms) only worth his salt if he's had combat or "life-taking" experience?

Most times, yes.

Because of your own experiences would you have trouble learning from someone who hasn't?

Yes.

Do you think its important for non-military folks to also consider these aspects when looking for a trainer?

YES!

IMO, "training" is done as a student with a teacher. I also find it best if that teacher is a professional. Absolutely necessary? No, but at the very least someone familiar with firearms, and familiar with how to teach firearms.

"Practice" is what is done with your friend(s) after the training has taken place. This is where you practice what you were taught, and having liked-minded friends along helps to get a different perspective on what you're doing, and how you're doing it.

This lets me "practice with" like-minded folks from time-to-time without carrying insurance

<snip>

But could you do it faster, more accurately, and more efficiently? A good trainer should be able to bring that out of you.

But he cannot simulate the effect of adrenaline dump. Just because you can do it in class does not necessarily mean it will carry over. If you stay in practice, you retain maybe 50% of what you learned. If you're not in practice, maybe 10%. An instructor needs to know that and teach for it.

One instructor I'm aware of had a police officer in class. The officer ended up having to put his training to use on the street. The instructor got word that the officer only used one hand to shoot when he had been taught to use two, and he was aghast. This is a mark of a poor instructor.

Mas Ayoob and a few others, a number of years back, started experimenting with injections of pseudoephedrine hydrochloride to simulate the effects of adrenaline. They had paramedics on standby, and the idea was that if this panned out, they would use it in their most advanced classes. In my opinion, this is an excellent way to simulate adrenaline dump, but ultimately it's probably too risky. They must have reached that conclusion too, as I've not heard anything more about it.

A few years ago I was at the local gunshop. They have a range out back.

There was an older gent there, a Vietnam combat vet, making his first handgun purchase, an officer's sized Kimber custom of some sort.

We got to talking. Come to find out he didn't know how to use that thing, so I showed him. He was thinking in terms of rifle tactics and multiple assailants; I was showing him the shooting techniques I developed over the years on the civilian side of things.

Now, I had my rifle with me. SKS. He was familiar with it, and he showed me some tricks that he'd picked up in the late '60s, early '70s, using similar type rifles the jungle.

What he said and showed me made a hell of a lot more sense than anything I'd been previously taught.

I practiced, practiced, practiced what he taught me, and that, along with having been on the rifle for most of the summer, allowed me to take "Rifleman" at Appleseed on my second target. (I would have had it on the first one, but someone through an extra shot onto my target and it was disqualified).

Now, there were gunfighters in the Old West. While their tallies are probably embellished, they were dangerous men. Wild Bill Hickok, Wes Hardin, even Billy the Kid -- they were all able to fight fair fights and come out on top (though admittedly, the latter preferred to ambush most of the time).

Who taught them? Hickok wasn't fast; the cavalry draw he used precluded any extreme speed. However, he practiced 10 shots every night shooting at fence posts and such.

Likely he won because he entered "The Zone" or, as Appleseed calls it, "The Shooter's Bubble" and was able to shut out outside influences and just hit his mark.

Just my two cents, but worth every penny!

Josh

 

[jeremy]

I wasn't reading anything into your answer. Those were real questions. Thanks for your answers.

I re-read my reply to you and I did sound just a tad snippy there didn't I...

Sorry about that. I have been fighting a Stihl Chainsaw all day in the Shop. Got me a little frazzled and short tempered. But the Bourbon is helping that...

 

[rhino]

I've never been to a class where the instructor yelled. That's another perceived misconception that I see. *Good* instructors don't need to yell and scream at students. Depending on the context, if I were in a class where I was getting yelled and screamed at, I'd request a refund and happily be on my way.

I like to yell. It makes it seem like I know what I'm talking about.

Heh.

However, I've decided to retire from teaching people what I've learned because 1) I've never killed anyone and 2) I've never been a police officer or in the military (other than that year of ROTC).

Well, not really. However, if someone chooses to believe that their needs can only be met by hardened professional soldiers or police officers, it's their business. Don't patronize me. Even if I know some things that would be useful to you, you would not accept the information coming from me.

Along those lines, I find it interesting that those who demand that type of "real" experience will often accept service as a police officer as sufficient with no further questions. How many police officers go through an entire 20 or 30 year career without even drawing their weapon much less use it to defend themself? That would probably be most of them.

Now I must go and prepare . . . I have to go make sure the helicopter is ready to go for the fast roping class I'll be teaching tomorrow right before the Sooper Seekrit Killin' Skilz seminar I'm leading.

 

[snowman46919]

I like to yell. It makes it seem like I know what I'm talking about.

Heh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6vHOR8lzTg

 

[bwframe]

I like to yell.

MOVE!!!

 

[VUPDblue]

Talking loudly toward folks (especially during a drill) and screaming at them wholesale are not the same.....

 

[jeremy]

However, I've decided to retire from teaching people what I've learned because 1) I've never killed anyone and 2) I've never been a police officer or in the military (other than that year of ROTC).

Well, not really. However, if someone chooses to believe that their needs can only be met by hardened professional soldiers or police officers, it's their business. Don't patronize me. Even if I know some things that would be useful to you, you would not accept the information coming from me.

Rhino,

I am betting you could teach me plenty about Shooting. And when I am looking to only Learn Shooting I go to People like yourself. Competition Shooting brings a LOT to the table. Not all of it is real world applicable though...

Teaching me Tactics, Combat Survival, and Field Medicine probably not so much. And I have stated as much in prior posts on this subject.
What can YOU teach me in those areas?!
Do YOU know whether What you are instructing in those areas works or not?!
What can you teach me about the Theater I maybe heading into?!
Can you teach me how a Native Afghan will act?!
Can teach me the Differences in a Pashtoon and an Afghan?!
Can you tell me the Difference Between a Sunni or a Shia from Iraq?!
What can you instruct me on in Desert Survival?!
How about Mountain Warfare Techniques?!
Can you tell me what to do if I encounter a Krait?!

One of the Reasons I prefer to Learn THIS TYPE of Information and Training from Soldiers is Cause I research their Resumes and make sure that they KNOW what does and does not work there...
I have learned the Hard way that what works here, may not work in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Kosovo, or Somalia, or etc...

Along those lines, I find it interesting that those who demand that type of "real" experience will often accept service as a police officer as sufficient with no further questions. How many police officers go through an entire 20 or 30 year career without even drawing their weapon much less use it to defend themself? That would probably be most of them.

I also will not take Classes like the few I listed above from former LEO's...
Seems Kinda silly to me to go learn Combat from a Cop...

 

[USMC_0311]

What kind of experience would you consider "practical" if not life-taking? Those I am aware of who have been in actual gunfights took lives (most typically soldiers).

Military, law enforcement, protection services are practical but necessarily "life-taking". If a cop has been walking his beat for 10 -15 years and has not had to take a life, that may be a good thing. They would have something to offer.

I am sure there are some talented people without real life practical application teaching but if you never get to apply the tactics you teach how can they be sure they work?

I'm guessing we agree in principal, but assign different names to it.

I think we are lot closer then you think.

For you it may. Why? Because you've already been through training.

Will mere practice help the person who's never fired a gun before?.

I see your point and agree a person needs to know what to practice. I have an idea...see below.

I agree that those without financial means should seek out learning in any way they can.

But in most cases I don't believe its a case of not actually having the money, but rather not choosing to put the money they already have into training. Just ask yourself "how much have I spent on firearms hardware in the past year? How much have I spent on software (training)?"

This one is really hard for because I have a good job and make a pretty decent living. That being said it’s been 5 years since my last raise and being in the mortgage business no guarantees on if I will have a job in 4 months let alone a raise. I personally have not bought a new gun in 2 years for myself. I traded a few to get my son a shotgun for deer season. I did attend an Appleseed. I know I take my employment status for granted, knowing how hard it is to make ends meet while being employed I can only imagine what it would be like not having a job. Even making minimum wage I doubt anyone could find room for a high dollar training class.

To say "most cases" is not a fair assessment in this economy. This is where we as a gun community could make difference and find a way to offer new inexperienced shooters free classes. I would volunteer my time and expertise, anyone else?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The Chinese are very wise***

***with the exception of daylight savings time.

 

[esrice]

This one is really hard for because I have a good job and make a pretty decent living.

My above challenge was more generic and not necessarily pointed at you personally. I appreciate the honest response though.

To say "most cases" is not a fair assessment in this economy.

It may not be. My assessment was based mostly on those here on INGO who would say they simply "don't have the money". It can be assumed that because INGO is online, which requires monthly internet service and a computer that the poorest of gun owners are not represented here.

This is where we as a gun community could make difference and find a way to offer new inexperienced shooters free classes.

Agreed.

I've seen such examples right here on INGO, and would love to see more.

ACT, for example, offers VERY reasonably priced classes, making training accessible to virtually everyone. I'm sure they barely turn a profit. Such is the same with PD Training and a few other outfits here on INGO.

Member HandK has driven several hours from his home in Michigan on several occasions to provide training to INGO members at NO cost at all.

 

[Gamez235]

For me the biggest thing was working around the hectic gun show schedule, well now that the shows are slowing, I'll be at the range a lot more. Weekends, here I come!!

 

[J man]

Over here on my side of the border we have to take a class to get our CHL (concealed handgun license) so I did take one class. I wold like to eventually take more but time and money will determine that.

 

[modelflyer2003]

I didn't vote, because none of them apply. I am a full time student and full time employee. I am in graduate school and just don't have the time. I have taken them before years ago at the LEO academy and every year for several years, but not since 1993. I got my Florida by presenting my DD 214. If I was not a vet i would have had to have taken a class with a range shoot.

 

[purduepurdy]

How does one go about signing up for Sheriff Campbell's classes? A work assosciate took the class this past weekend and loved it. I was trained by an old marine, my father, but would love some formal training. Thanks.

 

[esrice]

How does one go about signing up for Sheriff Campbell's classes?

Looks like emailing him directly is best.

Introduction to Defensive Pistol 2011 Schedule

 

[lovemachine]

How does one go about signing up for Sheriff Campbell's classes? A work assosciate took the class this past weekend and loved it. I was trained by an old marine, my father, but would love some formal training. Thanks.

He has awesome classes! Well worth the money.

Training Announcements

 

[hot rod al]

I would love to take a defensive pistol class as well as a carbine course but being unemployed is a *****. Maybe someday.

^ I know how that feels. ^
I've been unemployed for over 2 years

 

[Bummer]

I will when I can find one/some that fit in with my work schedule.