What's wrong with Ellsworth? (thread-split)

[Bill of Rights]

If you hope for the best and lose you can blame yourself.

If you hope for the best and win then you can blame people who made the hard choice.

Stand up, pull up your big boy pants, and vote. We have two foes. First we have to defeat Coats in a few days. Second we have to defeat Ellsworth in November. We NEED your help.

OK... I think it's fair to say that most if not all of you know that I'm not trolling here. I've seen nothing at all good on Coats, some good and some bad about Stutzman and Hostettler, and almost nothing about Ellsworth. I went to his website and at least on 2A, his rhetoric seemed more aggressive than the ubiquitous, "I support the Second Amendment but..." I also went to vote-smart.org and found that he echoed that there and his voting record (admittedly consisting of only one vote) on gun issues was pro 2A.

I don't know much about him other than this, though, except that he has a D after his name. I personally don't care about party except as a general guideline of someone's position.

Will someone please tell me what it is about him that you specifically oppose?

Thank you in advance.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[melensdad]

... almost nothing about Ellsworth. ...

Will someone please tell me what it is about him that you specifically oppose?

How about you stay on topic and take that to a different thread?

 

[Joe Williams]

How about you stay on topic and take that to a different thread?

I think it IS on topic. Some of us are being asked to abandon the man we feel best fit for the job, and cast our votes for 2nd best. So far, the best reasoning I've seen is that we've got to beat Ellsworth....

WHY do we have to beat Ellsworth? Him being a Dem isn't a good enough reason. Reps haven't been doing much for us either. The only reason many of them opposed the health care bill was to have a drum to beat this November, if another President had proposed a similar plan they would have voted for it, as they did for the massively expensive Medicare changes under Bush.

 

[melensdad]

I think it IS on topic.

This thread is about the internal politics of the Republican primary. Last time I checked Ellsworth was not on that ticket.

I'm not saying asking about Ellsworth is a bad thing, I'm simply saying a discussion of Ellsworth is not part of this thread. Or if you want to know why conservatives should beat Ellsworth then tart up a new thread to discuss him.

 

[Bill of Rights]

OK... I think it's fair to say that most if not all of you know that I'm not trolling here. I've seen nothing at all good on Coats, some good and some bad about Stutzman and Hostettler, and almost nothing about Ellsworth. I went to his website and at least on 2A, his rhetoric seemed more aggressive than the ubiquitous, "I support the Second Amendment but..." I also went to vote-smart.org and found that he echoed that there and his voting record (admittedly consisting of only one vote) on gun issues was pro 2A.

I don't know much about him other than this, though, except that he has a D after his name. I personally don't care about party except as a general guideline of someone's position.

Will someone please tell me what it is about him that you specifically oppose?

Thank you in advance.

Blessings,
Bill

How about you stay on topic and take that to a different thread?

I think it IS on topic. Some of us are being asked to abandon the man we feel best fit for the job, and cast our votes for 2nd best. So far, the best reasoning I've seen is that we've got to beat Ellsworth....

WHY do we have to beat Ellsworth? Him being a Dem isn't a good enough reason. Reps haven't been doing much for us either. The only reason many of them opposed the health care bill was to have a drum to beat this November, if another President had proposed a similar plan they would have voted for it, as they did for the massively expensive Medicare changes under Bush.

This thread is about the internal politics of the Republican primary. Last time I checked Ellsworth was not on that ticket.

I'm not saying asking about Ellsworth is a bad thing, I'm simply saying a discussion of Ellsworth is not part of this thread. Or if you want to know why conservatives should beat Ellsworth then tart up a new thread to discuss him.

Fair enough question and point, Melensdad. I was on topic (the election of our next senator), as far as I was concerned, but I see your explanation as to why it was not. I'll split it off.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[dburkhead]

I think it IS on topic. Some of us are being asked to abandon the man we feel best fit for the job, and cast our votes for 2nd best. So far, the best reasoning I've seen is that we've got to beat Ellsworth....

Looks at thread title.
Says "Coats" not "Ellsworth."

Looks to me like the thread is about beating Coats.

WHY do we have to beat Ellsworth? Him being a Dem isn't a good enough reason. Reps haven't been doing much for us either. The only reason many of them opposed the health care bill was to have a drum to beat this November, if another President had proposed a similar plan they would have voted for it, as they did for the massively expensive Medicare changes under Bush.

"Reps haven't done much for us either." When was the last time the Republicans have voted, en-bloc for anything against such a storm of public disapproval as there was for this health care debacle? While individual candidates may vary, of course, as a group the Republicans have been willing to listen at least a bit to their constituents. Not much, perhaps, but any at all is better than none.

The Constitution, for that matter, the whole concept of representative government, has a severed artery. The Democrats are the bright, spurting, arterial blood. The Republicans are the ready to hand that's not exactly antiseptic. If you use that cloth to stop the bleeding you'll probably end up with an infection, maybe a systemic one. But at least the patient will still be alive to have an infection.

So do you use the cloth to apply pressure to the wound and risk the near certainty of infection or do you spend the effort looking for those perfectly antiseptic gauze pads which aren't big enough to cover the wound anyway? The antiseptic gauze pads (Libertarian/Constitutionalist/what have you party candidates) would be the perfect answer if you could get enough, in time, to stop the patient from bleeding to death. Unfortunately, you can't.

Now, the reality of politics in Washington is that when you select a particular politician you are not just selecting that politician but the support his or her party will have in Washington. That wonderfully pro-Gun Democrat one votes for locally could also mean that the half a dozen most anti-gun Democrats get choice committee assignments which allows them to kill pro-gun bills before your candidate even gets to vote on them or to make sure that anti-gun riders get put on bills that your candidate will vote for because of other "values" that candidate has (which values made the candidate choose "democrat" rather than some other party under which to run).

Ideally each representative/senator in Washington would vote his or her conscience on any given issue/bill regardless of party affiliation--in much the same way that "ideally" I should be able to flap my arms and fly if I want to (or better yet, just fly without having to flap my arms--if there were one super power I could have...). Reality, however, is that so long as any group is willing to work together as a group despite individual differences between them then the only way to counter them is to also work together as a group and put aside differences between them as well.

You can decry that necessity all you want but the reality is that you will do it or you will lose. You may lose anyway if you do work together with others whose values don't always match yours but if you don't you will lose.

In Indianapolis we have one Libertarian representative on the City-County council. (If I speak his name, will he appear? ) When we have 4 or 5 there will probably be enough support in Indianapolis for Libertarians running as Libertarians (as opposed to libertarians (small "l") running as Republicans) to have a serious chance of sending one or more Libertarians from the districts covering Indianapolis to the State House. Ditto other areas. And once we can get together enough support to put a significant number of Libertarians in the State house, then we have a realistic chance of maybe putting Libertarians in Washington as Senators or Representatives (who will, if they want to have any real effect, have to caucus either with the Republicans or Democrats).

And once we have enough Libertarians on Capital Hill that they can caucus by themselves, then and only then would it be realistic to expect to be able to put a Libertarian in the White House.

These intermediate steps I describe are not "stepping stones" so much as simply measures of popular support. If you don't have enough support for Libertarians to put three or four more people on the Indianapolis city-county council, if you can't get enough votes for that, then how are you going to get the votes for House of Representative, let alone the Senate or White House?

 

[rhino]

Bill ... you should talk to some of the 2nd Amendment Patriots who heard him speak before the election when Hostettler pi**ed-away his Congressional seat to Ellsworth. One of the questions they asked him was about his opinion of ownership of NFA weapons. His answer was that as sheriff of his country, he never refused to sign the paperwork . . . for a police officer.

No joke, and he thought this made him sound pro-RKBA. He is definitely no friend to anyone who holds their individual right to keep and bear arms sacred or even attaches some level of importance to it.

A fun joke I heard on the radio recently:

"What's an Ellsworth?"

"Not much."

 

[Expat]

IMHO Ellsworth has shown that given sufficient pressure from the White House, he will vote against his constituents and for the party machine.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Thank you, Rhino. This is the kind of answer I was looking for. Rep added. He claims to be pro 2A, his single-vote voting record is pro-2A, his NRA rating is pro-2A, but there's the glaring possible dealbreaker.. pro 2A, as long as you wear a badge. This, of course, doesn't mean he's opposed to NFA stuff in non-cop hands, just that he's willing to OK it for cops because they're cops... I'm not much a fan of special treatment, even when it's in my favor. (this doesn't mean I won't accept it (I'm pretty sure my job and the fact that I knew the cop got me out of a ticket a couple of times. It wasn't stated as such, but I wasn't going to ask him for one!), but it does affect my opinion of the person who does it. For all I know, though, the cops in those two cases might just have been in good moods that night. Maybe they cut me slack because I was polite and civil. Maybe because I pulled straight over and waited, I don't know.)

The negatives I mentioned in the OP on Hostettler and Stutzman have both indicated they were pro-Big Government as well. I'm going to have to do some looking, but if Ellsworth is not... well, let's just say that I may vote all Republicans in an election, but it's not by pulling the "Straight Ticket" lever. I want the guy who best represents my opinions, not just the guy with an R or for that matter, even an L after his name. I want Americans in office, not just US citizens.

Blessings,
Bill

Bill ... you should talk to some of the 2nd Amendment Patriots who heard him speak before the election when Hostettler pi**ed-away his Congressional seat to Ellsworth. One of the questions they asked him was about his opinion of ownership of NFA weapons. His answer was that as sheriff of his country, he never refused to sign the paperwork . . . for a police officer.

No joke, and he thought this made him sound pro-RKBA. He is definitely no friend to anyone who holds their individual right to keep and bear arms sacred or even attaches some level of importance to it.

A fun joke I heard on the radio recently:

"What's an Ellsworth?"

"Not much."

 

[Bill of Rights]

IMHO Ellsworth has shown that given sufficient pressure from the White House, he will vote against his constituents and for the party machine.

What gave you cause to form that opinion, Expat? (Examples, please?)

 

[HobbyGuy]

I live in Evansville. Rep. Ellsworth has a record of voting against his constituents. When the TARP bill was being debated, Mr. Ellsworth was quoted as saying the 95% of the calls coming into his office were opposed to the bill; however, he was going to vote for it. During the health care debate, Mr. Ellsworth refused to have town hall meetings to hear from his constituents. You could try to schedule a one-on-one appointment with him, but you would not be allowed to record anything that he said on the topic. When elected, he stated that he would not be voting for Pelosi for Speaker. First thing he did was vote for her. Mr. Ellsworth does not represent his constituents. IMHO.

 

[irishfan]

I live in Evansville. Rep. Ellsworth has a record of voting against his constituents. When the TARP bill was being debated, Mr. Ellsworth was quoted as saying the 95% of the calls coming into his office were opposed to the bill; however, he was going to vote for it. During the health care debate, Mr. Ellsworth refused to have town hall meetings to hear from his constituents. You could try to schedule a one-on-one appointment with him, but you would not be allowed to record anything that he said on the topic. When elected, he stated that he would not be voting for Pelosi for Speaker. First thing he did was vote for her. Mr. Ellsworth does not represent his constituents. IMHO.

You and the one point form Rhino are the only two points in this thread that are even close to answering BOR's question. I don't know a lot about Elsworth either so I need to know what he is about. All the other Ellsworth responses in this thread so far have been biased opinion at best and no real fact. I am glad to see this thread as if it is Coats vs Ellsworth I will have to make a serious decision while Hostettler or Stuzman makes it easy for me.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I live in Evansville. Rep. Ellsworth has a record of voting against his constituents. When the TARP bill was being debated, Mr. Ellsworth was quoted as saying the 95% of the calls coming into his office were opposed to the bill; however, he was going to vote for it. During the health care debate, Mr. Ellsworth refused to have town hall meetings to hear from his constituents. You could try to schedule a one-on-one appointment with him, but you would not be allowed to record anything that he said on the topic. When elected, he stated that he would not be voting for Pelosi for Speaker. First thing he did was vote for her. Mr. Ellsworth does not represent his constituents. IMHO.

You and the one point form Rhino are the only two points in this thread that are even close to answering BOR's question. I don't know a lot about Elsworth either so I need to know what he is about. All the other Ellsworth responses in this thread so far have been biased opinion at best and no real fact. I am glad to see this thread as if it is Coats vs Ellsworth I will have to make a serious decision while Hostettler or Stuzman makes it easy for me.

You got it, irishfan. Thanks, hobbyguy. Rep added. I appreciate a straight, no opinion, factual answer.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Indy317]

Prior to Ellsworth winning his seat, someone was on this forum and made a comment. There was a country fair, or some sort of event in the area. At that time, the under Sheriff was present. A person, not showing their true gun rights feelings, just asked the question about assault weapons and what Ellsworth supported. The under Sheriff, whose boss was Ellsworth, stated that he believed that Ellsworth didn't support assault weapons.

If you dig deep enough, you might find it. While not a slam dunk "He's anti-gun!!" statement, it still is something to think about.

 

[rmabrey]

I have no evidence to support this but IMO he has been voting his way into Evan Bayhs seat. Possibly voting against his own believes.

 

[rhino]

I want Americans in office, not just US citizens.

Amen, I say, amen.

Along those lines, I'm no longer going to be shy about labeling someone or something "un-American" or "not a good American" just because it's not nice to say or write it. If someone does not embrace the fundamental principles upon which our country was formed, they are un-American in my opinion.

 

[irishfan]

Amen, I say, amen.

Along those lines, I'm no longer going to be shy about labeling someone or something "un-American" or "not a good American" just because it's not nice to say or write it. If someone does not embrace the fundamental principles upon which our country was formed, they are un-American in my opinion.

I agree with wanting to put a true American in office but can anyone tell me which candidate is? I can't vote for Dan Coats with any morality and don't know if I want to add another Democrat to the mix right now and their is not much in the third party area to support.

 

[rhino]

I agree with wanting to put a true American in office but can anyone tell me which candidate is? I can't vote for Dan Coats with any morality and don't know if I want to add another Democrat to the mix right now and their is not much in the third party area to support.

That's a dilemma. Because of our two-party system, the only two electable choices have demonstrated by their actions that they both fail my "American" test. I don't see much difference between them.

Hostettler would have been a much better choice for "us" (which the people crossing side in the primary knew) as he is significantly different from the likes of either Ellsworth or Coats.

And, of course, as was indicated in a photo previously, Hostettler and Stutzman "Perot'd" each other out of the race.

 

[longbow]

When his mouth is moving, he is telling Lies! I know way to much about Ellsworth..........

See my sig line.....and sometime I'll tell you what it means.......

First is way Bayh, now its Ellsworth and when he is gone ill focus on Lugar...

 

[rambone]

When his mouth is moving, he is telling Lies! I know way to much about Ellsworth..........

See my sig line.....and sometime I'll tell you what it means.......

I'm not a mind-reader but I think BOR wants to know what you have to say about Ellsworth specifically.


Here is how Ellsworth has voted on a few major issues in the past year. I would have voted all 4 of those issues with a big fat NAY.

Against Stimulus of 2009
Against Cap & Trade
For FDA Food Control Bill HR2749
For Obamacare


So he's not a total Communist but he still poses a pretty big threat to America. In my opinion.