What is the legality of using JHP or FMJ in a self defense scenario?

[kludge]

IMO, what will be more damaging is when your friend opens his mouth and explains this theory to the arresting officer or the jury.

"Well on the first shot, I didn't want to kill him, so I loaded a less lethal round in the chamber first."

Deadly force is deadly force. Shooting someone is deadly force. Period. There is no more "excessive" force than deadly force.

Your friend think he has logic. He doesn't.

An expert witness for the defense will explain it to the jury.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Just because it's in a criminal title does NOT mean it doesn't apply to civil suits.

Hence how the definition of a school got so complicated.

The general consensus in the legal community is that you are protected from both criminal and civil liability. They could file a suit, but it would be immediately dismissed.

You are correct, just because it's not in the civil suit section, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to civil suits. That is why there is a long list in title 34 ar 30 ch 2 that list all of the statutes outside of the civil suit section that confer immunity. The statute commonly quoted is not listed, nor has anyone listed case law where it was included.

Okay the general consensus in the legal community is that your protected? Can you point me to where any actual lawyers on INGO have stated that? Or give me the names and phone number of what lawyers you have talked to? I've never saw an attorney on here state that, or talked to any that stated it.

In this thread, a poster stated where an actual attorney that posts on INGO stated there was a case where a guy lost a civil suit in a self defense shooting in part because he was using hand loaded ammo. That post is here.

Yes, I'm sure any suit could be immediately dismissed. But I highly doubt it would be under this statute. A judge can dismiss on the basis of frivolous or base less grounds. Do you have any cites for any suits that have been dismissed because of this statute? Preferably from the appellate or higher.

 

[revance]

IMO, what will be more damaging is when your friend opens his mouth and explains this theory to the arresting officer or the jury.

"Well on the first shot, I didn't want to kill him, so I loaded a less lethal round in the chamber first."

Deadly force is deadly force. Shooting someone is deadly force. Period. There is no more "excessive" force than deadly force.

Your friend think he has logic. He doesn't.

An expert witness for the defense will explain it to the jury.

An anti-gun prosecutors wet dream...


"So you didn't intend to kill him? You didnt feel deadly force was justified? That was a WARNING shot??? Yet John Doe is DEAD leaving behind 10 children and their 8 mothers.

 

[finity]

You are correct, just because it's not in the civil suit section, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to civil suits. That is why there is a long list in title 34 ar 30 ch 2 that list all of the statutes outside of the civil suit section that confer immunity. The statute commonly quoted is not listed, nor has anyone listed case law where it was included.

Okay the general consensus in the legal community is that your protected? Can you point me to where any actual lawyers on INGO have stated that? Or give me the names and phone number of what lawyers you have talked to? I've never saw an attorney on here state that, or talked to any that stated it.

In this thread, a poster stated where an actual attorney that posts on INGO stated there was a case where a guy lost a civil suit in a self defense shooting in part because he was using hand loaded ammo. That post is here.

Yes, I'm sure any suit could be immediately dismissed. But I highly doubt it would be under this statute. A judge can dismiss on the basis of frivolous or base less grounds. Do you have any cites for any suits that have been dismissed because of this statute? Preferably from the appellate or higher.

Since you can't prove a negative I think it would better for you to show the cases in IN where it HAS happened that a BG sued (successfully or not) a victim when the victims self-defense actions were deemed legally justified?

If it happens as often as people seem to think then there should be AMPLE cases to cite.

It doesn't really matter in the real world WHY the suits were dismissed as long as they were. That's the point. If the judge can throw them out before they go anywhere & they do throw them out then where is the concern?

COULD it happen? Sure. Is it as much of a threat as so many think that it WILL happen as we hear so often. I don't think so.

If lawsuits by BG's against their victims start becoming commonplace in IN then I'll agree with you until then, I think the fear is WAY overblown.

 

[Boost Lee]

Sounds like you're friend is an undiscovered Einstein...

 

[BrewerGeorge]

I'd be more concerned about the ammo balancing being used as an example of "forethought." That's one of the reasons that I don't alternate #1 Buck and slugs in my SD shotgun, too. If you ever have to defend yourself legally, you want everything to point toward you reacting, not acting with forethought.

Mas Ayoob answers questions over on Glocktalk (you probably already know that, but just in case). Here's his take on the subject.

 

[rich8483]

maybe kirk can expand on this but i have been told by a self defense lawyer that even "warning shots" are not "less than lethal." it could simply be construed as a miss. same with shooting someone in the leg or something similar. aside from the ability to hit someone in the hand or leg accurately under stress.

fireing a weapon is fireing a weapon. you are either justified or not. speaking of Indiana anyways.

chose the ammo that feeds well through your weapon, is affordable and available to you and that you are comfortable with.





why does he have ONE fmj chambered? how many self defense shootings fire one shot? or even one at a time? (i dont mean auto fire, i mean double tap) the ones i read about are on average 3-5 shots fires back to back.

 

[revance]

why does he have ONE fmj chambered? how many self defense shootings fire one shot? or even one at a time? (i dont mean auto fire, i mean double tap) the ones i read about are on average 3-5 shots fires back to back.

It is obviously someone with no defensive shooting training. You don't stop and reevaluate after the first shot.

This is why they teach failure drills instead of Mozambique drills. Mozambique you evaluate and then take a head shot. Failure drills you simply raise your sights (never taking your eyes off the front sight) and if there is still something there you fire the shot.


As for lawsuits... I don't feel like getting into a drawn out legal argument. Bottom line is between following the written recommendations of my Sheriff and Indiana's better than average self defense laws, I am willing to bet my life savings that nobody is going to successfully sue me if I lawfully defend myself with JHP. If you are willing to use inferior equipment because you fear frivolous lawsuits, you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Just load wad cutters and be done with it. Oh, and ALWAYS shoot for center mass.