Walking Through an Ambush

[T.Lex]

Thus why I believe Barn Sour is the correct analogy.

If I'd spent 1/1,000 of the time interested in horses that I've spent interested in planes, I'd have a clue if you were right.

But, I'll take your word for it.

 

[printcraft]

You could also pretend like you don't speak their language......... plain spoken english should be enough to confuse most would be robbers.....

 

[2A_Tom]

I think the better take away from this is that deadly force ( or threat of) is a last resort. I have been unfortunate enough to encounter several situations in which drawing a firearm would have been justified, however I never have.

It is an ABSOLUTE last option, just because you decide to carry that option does not mean it is always the right one.

I can not comprehend how one can be jeopardy of or imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death, believe that deadly force would have been justified, and just walk away unscathed.

 

[GIJEW]

To walk through an ambush, you first have to walk into it. I'm not going to second guess the specific details of the situation and his decision to keep walking instead of 'engaging'--which ultimately worked out well--but the reason for going armed is because, as a general rule of thumb, you'll need to plan on fighting your way out of that kind of trouble. Bob messed up and got lucky.

 

[GIJEW]

I can not comprehend how one can be jeopardy of or imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death, believe that deadly force would have been justified, and just walk away unscathed.

It's about the assailant's willingness to follow through on the threat. Sometimes they're deterred--just psyched out even--and sometimes they're bluffing and they get called on it.

An aquaintance once told me about how some POS tried to abduct his girl friend at gun point in an apartment complex. She certainly wasn't going anywhere with that goon but calculated that

*He was threatening with a pistol because he didn't want a noisy fight that would attract all the neighbors attention.

*Since she was the "goods" to be taken, shooting her wouldn't get the POS what he wanted but would get him that noisy confrontation he was trying to avoid.

So she looked him in the eye and kept going on her way. The POS was surprised and recalibrating his OODA loop while she went on by.

No question that she would have been justified in sticking her hand in her purse, saying "no, just take my money" and then stuffing his face full of bullets--and if she'd been armed, it would have been a better option. She wasn't and desperation is the mother of inventing desperate measures. She was lucky and it worked.

 

[Col]

sometimes you fight, somestimes you walk, sometimes you run, training and your gut tell you when.

 

[Fargo]

IME with this sort of thing, there isn't really the "right" answer but rather the least crappy answer. Anytime someone is stalking you, you are already way behind the 8ball. You don't know your enemy's capabilities, wants, background, or endgame. You every response is based off guesses and assumptions.

He could have done everything "right" while pulling his gun and still EASILY have gotten killed. He could have easily gotten killed with his bluff.

I personally find that ceding control in these circumstances will often trigger pursuit so I can't imaging giving up my back on this sort of gamble. That's just me though, I might have gotten myself killed with my way.

This situation though does highlight why I can't stand the George Zimmermans of the world. Start stalking me and I will fishhook you the first chance I get...

 

[Cpt Caveman]

If they have a gun drawn and pointing at you, drawing on em at close range is a bad idea. You can't out draw a drawn gun.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I've read of potential victims fending off violence by out crazying the crazies. Saw a video once of a white guy goading black males into a fight on the street only to pull his pants down like he was gonna fight nekkid. In every instance where he was able to do that they immediately turned around, some even ran. Once or twice he annoyed the wrong person and got his ass cold cocked before he could do his spiel. Just goes to show, just as in the OP's post, bad guys expect victim behavior. If you instead give them the totally unexpected, it throws them off pace and can create opportunities.

Wouldn't the "bad guy" be the one goading another into a fight? I think the situations are wildly different. You're more likely to get shot than to have an actual bad guy run away. In the world of self-defense, there's only one rule I live by, and that's keeping the initiative. I'm not going to guess what the other guy may or may not do.

 

[rooster]

I can not comprehend how one can be jeopardy of or imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death, believe that deadly force would have been justified, and just walk away unscathed.

Escalation of force. If you do it properly then no reasonable jury or prosecutor will armchair quarterback you straight to prison. Always attempt to verbally or in this case non verbally take control of the situation.

 

[cerebus85]

"Bob" made a decision. The most important thing he could have done was something. He had many options but he ran through his rolodex of ideas and acted. we can quarterback all we want but in this scenario he went home. at the end of the day that's what matters.

 

[2A_Tom]

I think the better take away from this is that deadly force ( or threat of) is a last resort. I have been unfortunate enough to encounter several situations in which drawing a firearm would have been justified, however I never have.


It is an ABSOLUTE last option, just because you decide to carry that option does not mean it is always the right one.

Escalation of force. If you do it properly then no reasonable jury or prosecutor will armchair quarterback you straight to prison. Always attempt to verbally or in this case non verbally take control of the situation.

But I'm still not seeing justification for deadly force.

You said you had justification on multiple occasions, but you were able to puff out your chest, or whatever, and they let you alone.

I have been in fear of getting my butt kicked a couple of times and was able to run once and de escalate at others. I was never armed at the time, but under Indiana law there was never a case in which deadly force was justified.

I agree that deadly force is always a last resort. In my opinion if deadly force is ever justified it will also be immediate. I teach my wife if she ever pulls her gun she fires immediately, never try to stop an imminent threat with a bluff.

 

[Coach]

"Bob" made a decision. The most important thing he could have done was something. He had many options but he ran through his rolodex of ideas and acted. we can quarterback all we want but in this scenario he went home. at the end of the day that's what matters.

Amen. All is well that ends well.

Every hand is a winner and every hand is a loser. Know when to walk away and when to run.

Bob went home without a big hassle. Everyone can call it luck. Everyone can say coulda, woulda, shoulda. Lets talk about the results.

 

[Coach]

But I'm still not seeing justification for deadly force.

Outnumbered 2 to 1 in the dark. What is reasonably believed to be a drawn pistol and the order to stop. A reasonable person can conclude that they are not out collecting for the Red Cross. An educated person answering the responding officers questions correctly could be just fine. That man tried to murder me, there is the gun, I will sign a complaint, I will answer all your questions as soon as I talk with my lawyer.

 

[Thor]

You could also pretend like you don't speak their language......... plain spoken english should be enough to confuse most would be robbers.....

I did that in Mexico...the vendors would run up trying to speak'e'd'engish and I'd reply in German...worked every time.

 

[GIJEW]

If they have a gun drawn and pointing at you, drawing on em at close range is a bad idea. You can't out draw a drawn gun.

No, not if they're expecting you to draw a gun but if they're expecting to see your wallet and it turns out to be a gun, they have to process that info before they can react--Col. Boyd's OODA loop.

You might appreciate the 'defensive concepts' class that Coach and BBI teach. Disguising the draw wasn't a new concept for me, but having reaction time quantified with a timer was good info. When waiting on the signal to fire with the pistol aimed and finger on the trigger--no analysis needed--the reaction time was .3-.4 sec. Mix in a dose of surprise/confusion and you might double that time. In short, there is a window of opportunity you can get through if you're quick.

 

[Thor]

Exactly,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KvO-8IvoCI

 

[Sticky]

IMO, Bob screwed up and got lucky. I think whoever trained him did not teach him to respond in that manner (hopefully).

An excellent opportunity to post a link to one of my favorite posts of all time...

 

[cosermann]

No, but I suspect scope lock. ... I imagine it was like that, 20 yards from the complex's gate.

Hmm. I don't know. His SA was obviously pretty good. Usually, one's fixation will shift to the perceived threat/malfunction/etc. but in this case it didn't seem to. I wonder if there was something about the thugs that made his subconscious think they weren't all that serious (hence his attention wasn't diverted "sufficiently" from the goal of getting to the complex's gate).

Just seems kind of odd or "off" to me. Is Bob at all puzzled by his own reaction?

I does sound like he realizes he could have done something better (i.e. crossed the street), so that's good.

 

[Thor]

IMO, Bob screwed up and got lucky. I think whoever trained him did not teach him to respond in that manner (hopefully).

An excellent opportunity to post a link to one of my favorite posts of all time...

Excellent article, something to let people read so they know it's not just me...