Types of ammo...

[Eric70]

I'm am kind of new to this so I thought I would ask. Does it really matter what kind of ammo you have in your gun if you are going to have to use it in self defense? I have just been buying the cheap stuff to practice with and to get the feel of the gun. My wife and I have applied for our LTCH and I would just like to know if it's really going to matter if we have the high dollar ammo in our guns if we have to defend ourselves.

 

[Love the 1911]

A hollow point round will have a better chance at not overpenetrating a person if you are forced to shoot so lessens the chance that a bystander can get hit by your bullet after it strikes the bad guy. Hollow points also have less chance of ricocheting with as much velocity.

Based on that information, I would not blame you for using Remington JHP's which you can find at Wal Mart for cheap. I have never had an issue with the Remingtons in any of my guns.

For the court room (you will see one if you are forced to shoot someone) DO NOT use reloads when you are carrying for self defense. Any small thing that goes wrong will be attributed by the opposing attorney as being the result of your reloading. Also, I would strongly consider using the same round as local or federal law enforcment. These rounds have been tested to have reliable expansion, adequate penetration, and consistent performance. I use PDX bonded in my carry piece, the same round that the FBI currently carries. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for the rest of us.

 

[Slim400]

CARRY AMMO

I would recommend using straight ball ammo nothing fancy nothing creative several cases have been through the courts are either new loaded ammo or hollow points we're used and even though it was a plain self-defense case with the shooter had no criminal history at all and the bad guy had his own private file cabinet for numerous crimes in shooter was still found guilty based on the fact that he manufactured his own ammunition or use something more than just standard ball ammo also I would urge you to if you ever get in this situation there should only be one story to tell if not you can expect a civil suit after the criminal trial takes place while I don't agree with our current political situation is very unfortunate if you defend yourself or your family away from your home more than likely you will end up in some criminal or civil proceedings

 

[Eric70]

I would recommend using straight ball ammo nothing fancy nothing creative several cases have been through the courts are either new loaded ammo or hollow points we're used and even though it was a plain self-defense case with the shooter had no criminal history at all and the bad guy had his own private file cabinet for numerous crimes in shooter was still found guilty based on the fact that he manufactured his own ammunition or use something more than just standard ball ammo also I would urge you to if you ever get in this situation there should only be one story to tell if not you can expect a civil suit after the criminal trial takes place while I don't agree with our current political situation is very unfortunate if you defend yourself or your family away from your home more than likely you will end up in some criminal or civil proceedings

I understand what you are saying. And I have told my wife and 19 yo daughter that if you are in the situation that you have to shoot, make sure you empty the gun. Don't let them survive to sue you. I understand that doesn't stop their families from doing it. And it's sad that you should even have to worry about that.

 

[NIFT]

Jeff Cooper nailed with DVC--Accuracy, Power, Speed. All three must be present in defensive encounters. "Power" is an interesting concept. For me (and many others) "power" translates to "terminal ballistics," which is how the projectile performs when it hits the target.

Good primer on terminal ballistics, here:
Basic Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts - M4Carbine.net Forums

For ammunition meeting or exceeding terminal ballistic protocols:
Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations - M4Carbine.net Forums the first post, in particular.

Handguns, in general, are poor man stoppers, meaning instantaneous physiological incpacitation. Choosing the right ammunition, however, does improve your chances.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[XtremeVel]

About the only time I would recommend that ( using ball ) would be if the weapon could only reliably feed that. Then, I would recommend considering a different weapon.

Many times too much is put into these " so-called " court cases... You simply got to survive the situation first.

This was just recently discussed.

Click here: Is ammunition that important? - INGunOwners

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

For the court room (you will see one if you are forced to shoot someone)

This is simply not a true statement. Could it happen? Yes, but it's not a given by any means. Plenty of SD shootings recently to prove that. But anyone willing to use Deadly force should be prepared for it just in case it does happen.

 

[Fishersjohn48]

I would recommend using straight ball ammo nothing fancy nothing creative several cases have been through the courts are either new loaded ammo or hollow points we're used and even though it was a plain self-defense case with the shooter had no criminal history at all and the bad guy had his own private file cabinet for numerous crimes in shooter was still found guilty based on the fact that he manufactured his own ammunition or use something more than just standard ball ammo also I would urge you to if you ever get in this situation there should only be one story to tell if not you can expect a civil suit after the criminal trial takes place while I don't agree with our current political situation is very unfortunate if you defend yourself or your family away from your home more than likely you will end up in some criminal or civil proceedings

Some how I got out of breath reading this.....???

 

[voodoo304]

tnoutdoors9 has a great YouTube channel doing bullet tests. You should give him a watch.

 

[ATM]

I understand what you are saying. And I have told my wife and 19 yo daughter that if you are in the situation that you have to shoot, make sure you empty the gun. Don't let them survive to sue you. I understand that doesn't stop their families from doing it. And it's sad that you should even have to worry about that.

Horrible advice. This could very well turn a justified shoot into murder.

Shoot to stop the threat. Two, three, twenty rounds... whatever is required to stop the threat.
Once this is accomplished, putting more rounds into a non-threat simply to kill them is murder.

 

[yenningcomity]

For the court room (you will see one if you are forced to shoot someone) DO NOT use reloads when you are carrying for self defense. Any small thing that goes wrong will be attributed by the opposing attorney as being the result of your reloading.

Please POST PROOF. I see this one get posted too often and never once I have ever seen anyone post where someone got sued for using reloads.

Next I am gonna hear that you shouldn't use Black Talons because they are armor piercing hollow points......

 

[WebHobbit]

Please POST PROOF. I see this one get posted too often and never once I have ever seen anyone post where someone got sued for using reloads.

Next I am gonna hear that you shouldn't use Black Talons because they are armor piercing hollow points......

I don't have time to dig up a link right now but reloads HAVE BEEN a problem in court. Masaad Ayoob wrote about it. They didn't get sued for the use of the reloads but it was exploited by the scum-bags lawyer as an example of the shooter's 'bloodthirstiness". "Normal factory ammunition wasn't deadly enough for this guy!'

 

[WebHobbit]

I would recommend using straight ball ammo nothing fancy nothing creative several cases have been through the courts are either new loaded ammo or hollow points we're used and even though it was a plain self-defense case with the shooter had no criminal history at all and the bad guy had his own private file cabinet for numerous crimes in shooter was still found guilty based on the fact that he manufactured his own ammunition or use something more than just standard ball ammo also I would urge you to if you ever get in this situation there should only be one story to tell if not you can expect a civil suit after the criminal trial takes place while I don't agree with our current political situation is very unfortunate if you defend yourself or your family away from your home more than likely you will end up in some criminal or civil proceedings

Use ball for defense?


WORST ADVICE EVER

It's best to use what LEOs use.


And please man throw some periods in there for us! It is very difficult reading a paragraph sized "sentence".

 

[Leo]

yenning, As above poster mentioned, Professional witness expert Ayoob teaches to only use factory ammo. Also the State of Texas CHL license course (10 hours with a mandatory live ammo proficiency test) teaches to only use factory ammo. I am no expert with the court room, so I depend on those who make their living working the court room to guide me from pitfalls. I learn about religion from ministers, I learn heath care from Doctors, and I do trust legal advise from people who are in the court system. Even if it is not always 100% right, I think that will be safer in the event of a problem than any assumptions.

 

[Love the 1911]

Please POST PROOF. I see this one get posted too often and never once I have ever seen anyone post where someone got sued for using reloads.

Next I am gonna hear that you shouldn't use Black Talons because they are armor piercing hollow points......

It's not that they get sued for using reloads. Anything that goes wrong will be scrutinized and attributed to the "hot load" that the person undoubtedly had in their gun.

About hearing about the Black Talons? That's exactly what an attorney will say. Hollow points are ultra-deadly bullets and are unnecessarily cruel to the guy trying to rob/hurt you or another person. If you use the points that I pointed out in my first post (less likely to overpenetrate and ricochet thereby placing less risk to innocent bystanders, used by police because it is quicker and more likely to stop the threat) the likelihood that a jury will buy the argument is greatly reduced.

 

[Love the 1911]

This is simply not a true statement. Could it happen? Yes, but it's not a given by any means. Plenty of SD shootings recently to prove that. But anyone willing to use Deadly force should be prepared for it just in case it does happen.

It is almost a given. Not a criminal court necessarily but some kind of civil court is nearly guaranteed. The bad guy was just misunderstood and had just turned his life around and then some jerk had the audacity to wear expensive jewelry and entice him into acting like a thug again. If someone had just talked to him, he would have dropped his weapon, apologized, and gone about his day.

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

It is almost a given. Not a criminal court necessarily but some kind of civil court is nearly guaranteed. The bad guy was just misunderstood and had just turned his life around and then some jerk had the audacity to wear expensive jewelry and entice him into acting like a thug again. If someone had just talked to him, he would have dropped his weapon, apologized, and gone about his day.

Again, proof? Like I said before sure it can happen. Is it almost a given? No

 

[yenningcomity]

yenning, As above poster mentioned, Professional witness expert Ayoob teaches to only use factory ammo. Also the State of Texas CHL license course (10 hours with a mandatory live ammo proficiency test) teaches to only use factory ammo. I am no expert with the court room, so I depend on those who make their living working the court room to guide me from pitfalls. I learn about religion from ministers, I learn heath care from Doctors, and I do trust legal advise from people who are in the court system. Even if it is not always 100% right, I think that will be safer in the event of a problem than any assumptions.

I can agree with your logic, but my problem still boils down to a lack of proof.

That being said I did a little searching. I should go find the original thread it was posted in on THR, but don't have time at the moment.

Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court by Mas Ayoob

Personally speaking it still isn't enough for me to say not to. The first deals with a leo going after a perp. The second is a suicide case which really begs why does a man keep a loaded gun around someone with a history of suicidal tendencies? The third is a self defense case that had *messed up evidence*. The fourth case is dealing with another leo.

One out of four of Mr. Ayoob's cases actually deals with self defense that isn't in the line of duty. He admits there were problems with the evidence and they still didn't convict the man. If someone has more please post it. I don't mind being proven wrong, I just ask to see the proof.

I do see reloading potentially causing issues with a jury, but at the same time I see more problems from caliber and capacity. Which would raise more fuss reloaded 38 special or using a 44 magnum loaded with hot Buffalo Bore? Likewise how many rounds? From what I understand people are apt to continue firing until the magazine is empty under stress. I am not referring to those that train extensively with their weapon, more so those who buy theirs as protection and rarely if ever take it out. That being said which is more damning 5-6 shots from a revolver with reloaded ammunition or 20 from a FN 5.7?

 

[Leo]

Maybe I watched Perry Mason and other shows about the legal system too much when I was a kid, but this type of courtroom conversation keeps rattling in what is left of my mind. " and mister defendent, you are a bit of an expert on guns, in fact you actually manufacture your own ammo, You are not satisfied with regular factory ammo like the Police depatrtment finds to be good enough. You know how to select just the right bullet, and know how to pack exactly the right amount of powder, to make the ammo as deadly as possible, you just could not wait to see how it works on a human, you have been looking for an opportunity to see just how lethal you can be, AND YOU SEIZED THE CHANCE on my poor depressed client who thought he was coming to your house at 3:00 am for help because his medicine was fussing his vision. YOU HAVE BEEN WANTING TO KILL SOMEONE FOR A LONG TIME! HAVEN"T YOU!!!!! You carefully planned it like any cold blooded murder would do, didn't you!!! the prosecution rests your honor.

 

[Bapak2ja]

I would recommend using straight ball ammo nothing fancy nothing creative several cases have been through the courts are either new loaded ammo or hollow points we're used and even though it was a plain self-defense case with the shooter had no criminal history at all and the bad guy had his own private file cabinet for numerous crimes in shooter was still found guilty based on the fact that he manufactured his own ammunition or use something more than just standard ball ammo also I would urge you to if you ever get in this situation there should only be one story to tell if not you can expect a civil suit after the criminal trial takes place while I don't agree with our current political situation is very unfortunate if you defend yourself or your family away from your home more than likely you will end up in some criminal or civil proceedings

PLEASE! Please, use standard punctuation so we can accurately comprehend your point. I think I understand you, but I cannot be sure because I am forced to decide your meaning based on the absence of punctuation. Punctuation enables clarity of expression so the exact meaning intended can be comprehended. Without it, I can interpret your writing in several different ways and your meaning is lost.