Two killed, 1 critically injured in shooting at Texas church

[cedartop]

Mike, as you know, I’m no huge fan of Gabe, but in his defense, he gives a pretty fair accounting of the tactics used here. And with his other points, if you choose to take such a position, you need to be all in, for you see the results if you’re not. He is also not wrong in the good outcomes sometimes overshadowing poor performance area. I’ve seen myself do it a time or two on the range, well I missed my intended poa, but it’s still a kill shot so whatever...That sort of thinking reinforces bad behavior, and I find myself having to push harder and not settle for close enough.

I know. I was hoping some controversy would generate some talk on things we can do to get a positive outcome not just going and buying something. As you know though that can be work and most would rather not be involved with that. They figure just strapping on a gun will make them Jack Wilson when in reality they are much more likely to be the poor bas**** that goes down clutching at their waist for the talisman.

 

[Vigilant]

I know. I was hoping some controversy would generate some talk on things we can do to get a positive outcome not just going and buying something. As you know though that can be work and most would rather not be involved with that. They figure just strapping on a gun will make them Jack Wilson when in reality they are much more likely to be the poor bas**** that goes down clutching at their waist for the talisman.

So true, we got wrapped around the axle about tweet wording rather than glean pertinent info.

 

[Libertarian01]

I am in late but it is the front page story of AP:

https://apnews.com/de8a2aebc6d95b9131a08975a5d881f9

Seems to be a very well written story on first read.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Trigger Time]

OK here is the thing. We....the electorate.....keeps these dip weeds in office.
So where is the real issue here.

We have been fooled to believe the players matter. That voting actually makes a difference. Well it doesnt when the game itself is corrupt to the core. It only buys time. The system is too far gone.
Bigger empires than ours have fallen for doing exactly the same thing as we are now and ours too will fall or I should say reset. We are ready. Or some of us are. (I know cm is)

 

[Trigger Time]

I was talking off INGO with a friend tonight and we both agreed that the Man who stood to draw his gun and was shot first is a damn HERO! Yeah some things might have been done different but dont take away from this father and grandfathers willful sacrifice to his fellow brothers and sisters. He answered the call and we all are witnesses now and surely he is now in heaven beside the Lord.
Some people call into question why anyone would want to watch evil like this unfold on a video. Well I'm sure that this video and those HeroeS actions in this Church are gonna light a fire in a lot of peoples hearts and they are now going to start training. Maybe their church will now have armed security for the first time ever because of this video and these mens actions. Maybe laws will now be passed easier that wouldnt have been before, allowing parishioners to no longer be felons for carry at Church.
This was a win for the good guys. It is tragic that the lives of 2 good innocent men were lost but I bet if they had it to do all over again they both would have rather it been them than another member of their congregation.

 

[Libertarian01]

We have been fooled to believe the players matter. That voting actually makes a difference. Well it doesnt when the game itself is corrupt to the core. It only buys time. The system is too far gone.
Bigger empires than ours have fallen for doing exactly the same thing as we are now and ours too will fall or I should say reset. We are ready. Or some of us are. (I know cm is)

In many ways this is very true. Trump and his followers have often talked about "draining the swamp" but how many have really been drained? Comey at the FBI, along with maybe(?) half a dozen others. Whoopie damn doo. Out of a workforce of 35,000, let's say 10% are entrenched bureaucrats. Let's presume half of them are really good people truly trying to do right, that leaves 1,750 people in there just working to keep their jobs and power. 1,750 - 6 = 1,744. That's not draining the swamp, that's taking a cup of water out of a pond.

Now, none of this is Trumps fault. I am not blaming him. But he and his group have embraced the draining and they haven't done squat beyond some insignificant turnover at the top.

To truly reform the system and make significant and noticeable reform you need major legislation that requires the one thing we cannot get - cross party cooperation! We need the modern version of the National Labor Relations Act, the Civil Rights Act, Social Security, etc. I am not supporting or attacking these laws but they had real teeth. They changed how we do things in this country.

Today most people on the street agree with the idea of decriminalizing marijuana, yes? Why hasn't it happened at the federal level? The states are taking the lead but the feds do nothing. I'd venture a guess that most people on INGO lean conservative and what I've read here at least half would be good with decriminalization. Throw in 90% of the liberals and that is a massive percentage of the population and yet, nothing.

We need real reform in the system. We have needed severe immigration reform for decades and we get nothing. Trump is trying to keep people out, and I am not attacking that, but that is NOT reform. That is severe enforcement but not reform. We shouldn't have people waiting over a decade to become citizens. We need a real response to people that are now in their late teens or even 20's that were brought here as babies. They speak no language but English. They know no culture but American. There does need to be something done for them. Not to support their illegal entry but to support justice and fairness. A bank robber hijacks a taxi and forces the driver to try to get away at gunpoint. No one would even consider prosecuting the taxi driver, he had no choice. Neither did these kids. But we may agree that their pass is NOT completely free. There may be some price to pay. To even get to real reform here and dealing with this small issue in a large problem would require people like Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell to actually sit down and agree on key points knowing they aren't going to be happy with the outcome.

We cannot get there.

Crime, immigration, education, infrastructure, defense, torts, pollution, national debt, deficit spending, health care. The list goes on and on. And in the end to have powerful reform to deal with these problems and many more to prove Trigger Time wrong, we need to have people like Nancy and Mitch along with several hundred of their bestest buddies in the House and Senate to sit down and agree to do what's best for the country. The necessity of this level of cooperation is what makes Trigger Time right.

Regards,

Doug

 

[churchmouse]

L01.....none of this will happen until we clean house in the senate/house/and those terrible bureaucrats. Nothing will change.
That level of change falls on us. Those who vote. The very same mush brains that keep these very same people in the seats of power.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

This does seem to be one of the most "pure" and blatantly good defensive gun use situations in a while.

I can tell, because the usual media elites are just mad about it.

An armed civilian saved lives. They can't deny that. I'm surprised we don't have a list of off-color things the hero said 30 years ago... I'm sure they're digging.

 

[drillsgt]

I am in late but it is the front page story of AP:

https://apnews.com/de8a2aebc6d95b9131a08975a5d881f9

Seems to be a very well written story on first read.

Regards,

Doug

That article was pretty good, at least they dropped the FBI affiliation finally.

 

[Vigilant]

I was talking off INGO with a friend tonight and we both agreed that the Man who stood to draw his gun and was shot first is a damn HERO! Yeah some things might have been done different but dont take away from this father and grandfathers willful sacrifice to his fellow brothers and sisters. He answered the call and we all are witnesses now and surely he is now in heaven beside the Lord.
Some people call into question why anyone would want to watch evil like this unfold on a video. Well I'm sure that this video and those HeroeS actions in this Church are gonna light a fire in a lot of peoples hearts and they are now going to start training. Maybe their church will now have armed security for the first time ever because of this video and these mens actions. Maybe laws will now be passed easier that wouldnt have been before, allowing parishioners to no longer be felons for carry at Church.
This was a win for the good guys. It is tragic that the lives of 2 good innocent men were lost but I bet if they had it to do all over again they both would have rather it been them than another member of their congregation.

Most definitely mistakes were made, unfortunately they cost that heroic man his life. He, by giving his life saved others. That’s what makes a hero. There’s been nothing I’ve seen relating to how much ammo the killer carried, but there was or should have been at least one more shell in the shotgun.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

This does seem to be one of the most "pure" and blatantly good defensive gun use situations in a while.

I can tell, because the usual media elites are just mad about it.

An armed civilian saved lives. They can't deny that. I'm surprised we don't have a list of off-color things the hero said 30 years ago... I'm sure they're digging.

Good point. Right after this event hit the news, I suggested (on a FB post) that we all pray for Mr Wilson. He’s going to need it in the coming days and weeks. I figure there are those that would be hunting for any dirt they could find to besmirch him, law suits by the families (and even some in his church) might be drummed up, and at the time I wasn’t even sure there might not be investigations and maybe even charges brought up.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Mike, as you know, I’m no huge fan of Gabe, but in his defense, he gives a pretty fair accounting of the tactics used here. And with his other points, if you choose to take such a position, you need to be all in, for you see the results if you’re not. He is also not wrong in the good outcomes sometimes overshadowing poor performance area. I’ve seen myself do it a time or two on the range, well I missed my intended poa, but it’s still a kill shot so whatever...That sort of thinking reinforces bad behavior, and I find myself having to push harder and not settle for close enough.

This exactly!

There are times, and this was one, where only a lights out head shot on a moving target at 15 yards will save lives. Kudos to Jack Wilson for training to this level of proficiency... it was not a lucky shot.

That was not a training goal of mine, previous to this... it now is. "Not great, but good enough" is now "not good enough".

 

[churchmouse]

This exactly!

There are times, and this was one, where only a lights out head shot on a moving target at 15 yards will save lives. Kudos to Jack Wilson for training to this level of proficiency... it was not a lucky shot.

That was not a training goal of mine, previous to this... it now is. "Not great, but good enough" is now "not good enough".

I was at the range with CKW (spouse) last year and she asked why we were concentrating on 10" round steel at 21' and farther. The explanation was along the lines of what we all just saw. When she saw the video she remarked as to that day and her question. Now she understands.

Owning a gun is not the end of your responsibility's. Knowing how to safely/accurately use it is the next step. Staying proficient is yet another step.

The bad guy was moving forward if memory serves but still a very well placed shot.

 

[indiucky]

 

[churchmouse]

Man Beto boy is such a turd.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I was at the range with CKW (spouse) last year and she asked why we were concentrating on 10" round steel at 21' and farther. The explanation was along the lines of what we all just saw. When she saw the video she remarked as to that day and her question. Now she understands.

Owning a gun is not the end of your responsibility's. Knowing how to safely/accurately use it is the next step. Staying proficient is yet another step.

The bad guy was moving forward if memory serves but still a very well placed shot.

I've always been of the mindset that "better" is better. Being able to hit the tuft of hair aimed at on a deer, not just the general kill zone, so that a small miss is indeed small kinda thing.

I've shot IDPA shoots that had similarly small (10" round IIRC), moving targets at similar distances where I was a little skeptical. "Overkill" was the word that entered my mind... not anymore.

And, yes, when Wilson took the shot, the BG was moving up the outer aisle of the church towards the front... presumably to target the celebrants.

 

[BugI02]

In many ways this is very true. Trump and his followers have often talked about "draining the swamp" but how many have really been drained? Comey at the FBI, along with maybe(?) half a dozen others. Whoopie damn doo. Out of a workforce of 35,000, let's say 10% are entrenched bureaucrats. Let's presume half of them are really good people truly trying to do right, that leaves 1,750 people in there just working to keep their jobs and power. 1,750 - 6 = 1,744. That's not draining the swamp, that's taking a cup of water out of a pond.

Now, none of this is Trumps fault. I am not blaming him. But he and his group have embraced the draining and they haven't done squat beyond some insignificant turnover at the top.

To truly reform the system and make significant and noticeable reform you need major legislation that requires the one thing we cannot get - cross party cooperation! We need the modern version of the National Labor Relations Act, the Civil Rights Act, Social Security, etc. I am not supporting or attacking these laws but they had real teeth. They changed how we do things in this country.

Today most people on the street agree with the idea of decriminalizing marijuana, yes? Why hasn't it happened at the federal level? The states are taking the lead but the feds do nothing. I'd venture a guess that most people on INGO lean conservative and what I've read here at least half would be good with decriminalization. Throw in 90% of the liberals and that is a massive percentage of the population and yet, nothing.

We need real reform in the system. We have needed severe immigration reform for decades and we get nothing. Trump is trying to keep people out, and I am not attacking that, but that is NOT reform. That is severe enforcement but not reform. We shouldn't have people waiting over a decade to become citizens. We need a real response to people that are now in their late teens or even 20's that were brought here as babies. They speak no language but English. They know no culture but American. There does need to be something done for them. Not to support their illegal entry but to support justice and fairness. A bank robber hijacks a taxi and forces the driver to try to get away at gunpoint. No one would even consider prosecuting the taxi driver, he had no choice. Neither did these kids. But we may agree that their pass is NOT completely free. There may be some price to pay. To even get to real reform here and dealing with this small issue in a large problem would require people like Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell to actually sit down and agree on key points knowing they aren't going to be happy with the outcome.

We cannot get there.

Crime, immigration, education, infrastructure, defense, torts, pollution, national debt, deficit spending, health care. The list goes on and on. And in the end to have powerful reform to deal with these problems and many more to prove Trigger Time wrong, we need to have people like Nancy and Mitch along with several hundred of their bestest buddies in the House and Senate to sit down and agree to do what's best for the country. The necessity of this level of cooperation is what makes Trigger Time right.

Regards,

Doug

Sigh. You start off with a popular fallacy, what I call 'Why hasn't Trump fixed everything yet, he's had three years'. It ignores that every moment of those three years has been an uphill battle against virtually all Democrats, 90% of the media and recidivists in his own party. It also ignores good swamp draining ideas he is actually acting on, such as moving federal departments out of DC and closer to those the departments serve/affect

That was bad enough, but then you start talking about laws that affect the way government does business and wanting to change that - with you so far. Then, in what I have come to see as typical liberetarian fashion (although to date, I have not considered you a typical libertarian), we go to legalizing weed and dreamers. Really? Those are the most existential threats to America from big gov't? Are those the first things on the list deserving of rectification? Not national constitutional carry or reining in the FISA court and an out of control intelligence community? Not fighting against big gov't and big tech walking hand in hand towards 1984?

What you specifically advocate, IMO, will make us weaker as a nation. I get the argument that we're making criminals out of people who might not otherwise be, do you get that people who are willing to risk everything good in their life to smoke up now perhaps should re-examine whether or not they are addicted in some way. There are 'functioning alcoholics' too, but they are still alcoholics

With respect to dreamers, they have still broken the law - intent should have little to do with it whether in this case or Hillary's. At some point in their 'twenty years' here they must have realized their status, so every day after that they were willfully breaking the law. You just want to put a statute of limitations on the situation, which will do nothing to solve the problem and might make it worse

I just have the feeling that some people would also question why Christ and Christianity hasn't fixed the world, after all - they've had two thousand years

 

[KellyinAvon]

This exactly!

There are times, and this was one, where only a lights out head shot on a moving target at 15 yards will save lives. Kudos to Jack Wilson for training to this level of proficiency... it was not a lucky shot.

That was not a training goal of mine, previous to this... it now is. "Not great, but good enough" is now "not good enough".

Very well said.

 

[BugI02]

I've always been of the mindset that "better" is better. Being able to hit the tuft of hair aimed at on a deer, not just the general kill zone, so that a small miss is indeed small kinda thing.

I've shot IDPA shoots that had similarly small (10" round IIRC), moving targets at similar distances where I was a little skeptical. "Overkill" was the word that entered my mind... not anymore.

And, yes, when Wilson took the shot, the BG was moving up the outer aisle of the church towards the front... presumably to target the celebrants.

I started thinking seriously about practicing head shots after Garland, TX and similar incidents where criminals/terrorists were found to be wearing vests. The White Settlement video tells me I need more and better practice because while I believe I could have made that shot, I don't know that I could have

 

[Vigilant]

So, the picture on the left, can anyone point out the *****? I’ll give you a hint, it isn’t the one resting on the back of the chair.