Trying To Bring Back The Draft...Again.

[rambone]

Not worthy of comment. No one is going to convince someone who has not witnessed the results of military duty firsthand so I am going to stop trying, Stay Safe

P.S. As for leaving your family, there was such a thing as a "family deferrrment", and when I say kids you know that i mean young adults.

No comment? Is it so outrageous to believe that some people can be patriotic without working for the Federal Government?

Do they defer my duty if I don't want to leave my wife or girlfriend? What if I run a business and if I get forced to leave, my business dies and my bills go unpaid? What if I work in a factory and my boss depends on me, and if I go he will have to hire someone else to replace me? What if there is no earthly way I am going to accept forced vaccinations given to all soldiers? What if military pay isn't going to be able to cover the mortgage on this farm I just purchased? What if my sister is raising kids on her own and I help her out with babysitting every week? What if I take care of my sick father, and without me he would get put in a nursing home? Should it even matter why I don't want to leave? If I don't want to join, then why do I have to?

Some people fight the wars, and some people pay for the wars. Soldiers don't sell products. Somebody else has manufacture and sell products in order to pay for soldiers salaries. So why can't I just stay right where I'm at and keep doing my patriotic duty... of giving half my paycheck to the government.

And I have witnessed several military families and the struggles they went through. Two of my close friends got divorces while they were serving. What they did was a sacrifice. They signed up so that other people can live free back home. Forced government servitude is what they fight to prevent.

 

[rambone]

Indy317: Nice rant. I don't agree with your premise, but you rant well.

Do you disagree that forced servitude is slavery? When does it become slavery? Is it when you are being chased down by men with guns as you try to leave? Locked up in "the brig" for disobeying your master?

Yes, the military is a service, but going in you get it beaten into your head that you are a piece of meat owned by the Government. Beat that idea into every person's head and they will accept it in the real world too. Government owns you, and you do what you are told, slave.

Volunteer, yes. Forced by law, no way. Giving the Government the power to take you and all your rights and freedoms is the power to enslave you.

And for cripes sake, everyone seems to want this during peace time!!! If we had Commies goosestepping at our doorstep you might have a leg to stand on. But you guys want mandatory service just to socially engineer the populace into feeling patriotic? In reality we have Commies running the country and people actually cheering as they control over us.

 

[rambone]

Hmmm...I actually think a draft would be a good thing. Too may people in this country think they are owed things. People that expect free rides suck IMO.

People have this attitude because government intervenes and makes life easy after continued screw-ups in life. So instead of doing what is needed, which is getting rid of welfare for life, bailouts of banks and other companies, etc., we have folks here advocating for even MORE control over people's lives. Unbelievable.

Indy nailed it. Get rid of entitlements, don't justify the socialism with fascism.

It would also be beneficial to some of these younger kids these days that have never been told no or made to do something they didn't want to do. As for the ones that don't want to soldier, use the UCMJ and fill up some brigs. Yea I kinda like the idea. I think the country as a whole could benefit.

Fill up some brigs?? How about some FEMA camps? Maybe put them in a Gulags or political prisons and force them to do manual labor. Yeah teach those unruly peasants how we deal with "bad apples." You will submit to Government OR ELSE! We are doing this to you because we are patriots and we protect your liberty! Yeah freedom baby!

You want to put me in a brig, Molon Labe, comrade.

 

[Suprtek]

My position on this:

Free men don't allow themselves to be drafted.

Justified wars don't need drafts.

Simple, but this has a lot of truth in it!

 

[Indy317]

This thread shows why people like Obama get elected. More than enough people in this country are willing to support the country engaging fascism, socialism, communism, or a combination of all three, so long as they agree with what is being done. Sad.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

No comment? Is it so outrageous to believe that some people can be patriotic without working for the Federal Government?

Do they defer my duty if I don't want to leave my wife or girlfriend? What if I run a business and if I get forced to leave, my business dies and my bills go unpaid? What if I work in a factory and my boss depends on me, and if I go he will have to hire someone else to replace me? What if there is no earthly way I am going to accept forced vaccinations given to all soldiers? What if military pay isn't going to be able to cover the mortgage on this farm I just purchased? What if my sister is raising kids on her own and I help her out with babysitting every week? What if I take care of my sick father, and without me he would get put in a nursing home? Should it even matter why I don't want to leave? If I don't want to join, then why do I have to?

Some people fight the wars, and some people pay for the wars. Soldiers don't sell products. Somebody else has manufacture and sell products in order to pay for soldiers salaries. So why can't I just stay right where I'm at and keep doing my patriotic duty... of giving half my paycheck to the government.

And I have witnessed several military families and the struggles they went through. Two of my close friends got divorces while they were serving. What they did was a sacrifice. They signed up so that other people can live free back home. Forced government servitude is what they fight to prevent.

All of these are strawman arguments apropos of nothing much. Universal service, if such were enacted, would affect young people just out of school; it wouldn't have anything to do with those whose careers are already underway.

Likewise, your "forced service is slave labor" is a strawman argument, even if true on an intellectual level.

The theory behind universal service is that every adult has a duty to support the society in which he lives. Some versions of universal service ( the fictional society envisioned in Heinlein's Starship Troopers, for example) posit that an adult-aged person who won't contribute a "term" of service to the society won't be considered an "adult" for legal purposes.

Do we all have the inalienable right to ignore government and the society it creates with its rules. Well, I think we do, but if we don't pay sufficient attention to the various governments we - the people - have empowered, they always end up producing citizens who think the government is a nanny who will give them whatever they want; it's their "right". Universal service of some sort _might_ be a way to get citizens' attention on their government and the ways it can abuse us - but that's just a theory as well.

In one sense, I can agree with you, however. Universal service would have to be seen as a "societal obligation" by the greater majority of the citizenry before it could be successfully integrated into law.

 

[jsgolfman]

Either you own yourself or you don't. By condoning involuntary servitude you admit that you don't own yourself and are the property of someone else. If that is your philosophy, so be it, but don't force me to live by your philosophy. We owe no obligation to the society in which we live, other than that which we create ourselves. We will participate in that society only to the extent that whatever "fee" is extracted is equal to the benefit we receive.

As an individual, you have no right to force me to defend you or clean your yard or perform any other service for you, so how do you magically attain that right when you join forces with other like-minded individuals and create a "society"?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

(snipped)

As an individual, you have no right to force me to defend you or clean your yard or perform any other service for you, so how do you magically attain that right when you join forces with other like-minded individuals and create a "society"?

I'm sorry I'm apparently not making myself understood. IMO, "universal service" can only be made to work if it is seen as a societal obligation by the society. That means it needs to come from a perception by the individuals who make up society that "universal service" has a benefit to the individual as well as to the society, not something that would be imposed by a "ruling class" or even a simple majority.

If you want to take the idea further, individuals who are members of such a society, but who do not want to contribute to their society (for whatever reason) in the same way as the majority of that society, should feel free to leave it for another that suits them better (remember, I'm speaking theoretically here - I've already said I don't believe our current society will support universal service).

 

[ocsdor]

...The theory behind universal service is that every adult has a duty to support the society in which he lives. Some versions of universal service ( the fictional society envisioned in Heinlein's Starship Troopers, for example) posit that an adult-aged person who won't contribute a "term" of service to the society won't be considered an "adult" for legal purposes.

Do we all have the inalienable right to ignore government and the society it creates with its rules. Well, I think we do, but if we don't pay sufficient attention to the various governments we - the people - have empowered, they always end up producing citizens who think the government is a nanny who will give them whatever they want; it's their "right". Universal service of some sort _might_ be a way to get citizens' attention on their government and the ways it can abuse us - but that's just a theory as well.

In one sense, I can agree with you, however. Universal service would have to be seen as a "societal obligation" by the greater majority of the citizenry before it could be successfully integrated into law.

Fixed It For You.

 

[mrjarrell]

All of these are strawman arguments apropos of nothing much. Universal service, if such were enacted, would affect young people just out of school; it wouldn't have anything to do with those whose careers are already underway.

Likewise, your "forced service is slave labor" is a strawman argument, even if true on an intellectual level.

The theory behind universal service is that every adult has a duty to support the society in which he lives. Some versions of universal service ( the fictional society envisioned in Heinlein's Starship Troopers, for example) posit that an adult-aged person who won't contribute a "term" of service to the society won't be considered an "adult" for legal purposes.

Do we all have the inalienable right to ignore government and the society it creates with its rules. Well, I think we do, but if we don't pay sufficient attention to the various governments we - the people - have empowered, they always end up producing citizens who think the government is a nanny who will give them whatever they want; it's their "right". Universal service of some sort _might_ be a way to get citizens' attention on their government and the ways it can abuse us - but that's just a theory as well.

In one sense, I can agree with you, however. Universal service would have to be seen as a "societal obligation" by the greater majority of the citizenry before it could be successfully integrated into law.

You're wrong. I suggest you go back to the beginning and take a long hard look at Rangel's bill. It most certainly WOULD interrupt lives in progress and does NOT apply only to recent government school graduates.

To require all persons in the United States between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, to authorize the induction of persons in the uniformed services during wartime to meet end-strength requirements of the uniformed services, and for other purposes.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Fixed It For You.

No you didn't and I'd appreciate if you would refrain from "fixing" things for me in the future.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

You're wrong. I suggest you go back to the beginning and take a long hard look at Rangel's bill. It most certainly WOULD interrupt lives in progress and does NOT apply only to recent government school graduates.

You know, I distinctly said toward the beginning of this thread that I didn't think a Draft would work here and now. Nothing I have said about "universal service" has been anything other than theoretical and I have disclaimed - more than once - any expectation that such is practical.

 

[rambone]

Blackhawk, theoretically... if we didn't have a Constitution or Bill Of Rights, and lived in a society that consisted of people who cared more about "order" than "liberty", subservient to a king, and we stopped calling our selves "free", and changed the name of our country to something else, then this tyranny would "work."

Do you know the phrase inscribed on the rim of the Reichmark coins issued by the Nazis? "Public good before self interest." This phrase applies here. It doesn't matter how much liberty you take away from the individual, as long as society as a "collective" is being served, then the ends justify the means.

I vehemently oppose this whole concept not because I feel no patriotism and no desire to see a better society, but because I feel society would be better without Big Big Big Government telling us what to do. Literally in this case, making us servants to the Government.

What is the theoretical punishment for those who refuse to go along with the program? Indy317 suggested a hefty fine. Someone else suggested "filling up brigs" with dissidents, which sounded more like political prisons to me.

So I would like to know what should happens to bad apples like me who refuse to be subservient to the State.

The obvious tyranny of this proposal will rear its head when we have this discussion.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Blackhawk, theoretically... if we didn't have a Constitution or Bill Of Rights, and lived in a society that consisted of people who cared more about "order" than "liberty", subservient to a king, and we stopped calling our selves "free", and changed the name of our country to something else, then this tyranny would "work."

Do you know the phrase inscribed on the rim of the Reichmark coins issued by the Nazis? "Public good before self interest." This phrase applies here. It doesn't matter how much liberty you take away from the individual, as long as society as a "collective" is being served, then the ends justify the means.

I vehemently oppose this whole concept not because I feel no patriotism and no desire to see a better society, but because I feel society would be better without Big Big Big Government telling us what to do. Literally in this case, making us servants to the Government.

What is the theoretical punishment for those who refuse to go along with the program? Indy317 suggested a hefty fine. Someone else suggested "filling up brigs" with dissidents, which sounded more like political prisons to me.

So I would like to know what should happens to bad apples like me who refuse to be subservient to the State.

The obvious tyranny of this proposal will rear its head when we have this discussion.

You know, we had a Draft for a number of years. I'm not sure if it was in place prior to WWII, but between WWII and Vietnam, it worked pretty well (met the nation's perceived need to staff its military forces, that is)- until society decided that forced conscription into the eeeevilll military was wrong. Between WWII and the mid-Vietnam era, it was considered a young man's patriotic duty to serve his country, if called upon. In the post-Vietnam era, our society's view of "patriotism", largely tarnished by the perceived failure of the war (which was largely shaped by Communist propaganda) waned until we have today, any thought of conscription is forcing us into slave labor. So, were your parents and grandparents Socialists because they allowed conscription and obeyed it?

 

[rambone]

You know, we had a Draft for a number of years.

We need to clear something up... We are going around to a lot of different topics.

1. The article this conversation spawned from is about "mandatory service," not even necessarily having to do with the Military. I'm firmly against that and I find it even more oppressive and repugnant than high taxation.

^^ this topic is where people think society would be bettered if they were more dominated by Government.


2. If we are talking about Military Draft, why would we everrrrrrrr have this conversation unless we were literally in a declared war and our very existence was at stake? Our conflict over there in Afghanistan searching for Osama doesn't even come close to justifying the draft. And I don't even believe there are even a shortage of voluntary recruits, are there? So why, oh why, are we trying to bring this back?

I'm not sure if it was in place prior to WWII, but between WWII and Vietnam, it worked pretty well (met the nation's perceived need to staff its military forces, that is)-

FDR's Japanese-American Concentration Camps worked pretty well too. So did his gold confiscation program. Infringement on citizens' rights, if the state will benefit (arguable). Do the ends justify the means? Did you think about that slogan on the Reichmark?

until society decided that forced conscription into the eeeevilll military was wrong.

I am quite certain that it was equally unpopular back then. Talk to some drafted vets about it.

Between WWII and the mid-Vietnam era, it was considered a young man's patriotic duty to serve his country, if called upon.

If the call is justified, then we can have a discussion about Military Draft during legitimate, declared wars. I would still hold the opinion that a just war needs no draft, people will volunteer, and they have.

However, this discussion of "mandatory service" to the state is just mind-blowing. For the betterment of the collective, force everyone to serve the State. And watch the government's size and power grow.

So, were your parents and grandparents Socialists because they allowed conscription and obeyed it?

Were they socialists? No. Were their rights being infringed and their liberty being suppressed? Yes.

Living under a socialist government doesn't make a person a socialist. You want to talk about President Johnson? Let's talk about the presidents who support conscription and their views on state power and socialism. Let's talk about the other countries who do this, and their constitutions (or lack thereof).



So... I still want to know what is going to be done to me when I refuse to submit to tyranny. What is just punishment for such a grievous offense?

 

[steveh_131]

Peace is made in such ways...

 

[rambone]

Peace is made in such ways...

SLAVES ARE MADE IN SUCH WAYS!!

You tell your king, that Rambone Wallace will not be ruled, nor will any Scot while I live.

 

[steveh_131]

 

[steveh_131]

So, were your parents and grandparents Socialists because they allowed conscription and obeyed it?

This particular quote disqualifies you from ever labeling an argument a "straw man" again.

Ridiculous.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

This particular quote disqualifies you from ever labeling an argument a "straw man" again.

Ridiculous.

Says you