To Mask or Not to Mask?

[ajeandy]

I don't think people are blaming conservatives for particularly spreading the virus (with the exception of the indoor Trump rallies). At the moment, young people going to bars and house parties appears to be a key source of community transmission.

What I think people do see is that a big chunk of conservatives are starting to look like the Flat Earth Society. Googling until they find some rare bird doctor who agrees with their preconceived notions, or misinterpreting a study, or even quoting "doctors" from completely different fields rather than deal with their cognitive dissonance.

It just doesn't appeal anyone to listen to any ideas on anything else. It repels people from even considering rational conservative ideas.

Even many of the congresscritters are acting like they know more than the scientists.

And yes, this is all my opinion. I can only tell you that it's the first time I'm embarrassed to be a conservative libertarian. It's getting more difficult to convince people that conservatives want to do the right thing for their fellow man.

Welcome to 2020 where people refuse to say, you know what, I was wrong, we should try something else. Stubbornness is what will drag this out and make a mountain out of a mole (well it never really was a mole but you get the point).

I will stand by health experts above crusty clowns in congress every day when it comes to virus/pathology. At least the health experts always start with "as of now" or "based on what we know" instead of making some stupid blanket statement that later has to be walked backed because it was an opinion or based on very little to no evidence.

 

[BugI02]

No, I assumed nothing of the sort.
Naturally, the reality of the matter is no matter what we say powers that be will do whatever they want.
Holcomb appears to have been religiously following whatever Trump/Pence administration was advocating, I surmise, due to Pence being a Hoosier.
To recapitulate, if the "authorities" really wanted to achieve some goals, they would've 1) defined them, 2) stuck to them, and 3) changed their methodology in accordance with new evidence.
Imo the coronavirus situation stopped being about the virus right around late March, give-or-take.

THIS!!! So very much THIS!

 

[jamil]

I don't think people are blaming conservatives for particularly spreading the virus (with the exception of the indoor Trump rallies). At the moment, young people going to bars and house parties appears to be a key source of community transmission.

What I think people do see is that a big chunk of conservatives are starting to look like the Flat Earth Society. Googling until they find some rare bird doctor who agrees with their preconceived notions, or misinterpreting a study, or even quoting "doctors" from completely different fields rather than deal with their cognitive dissonance.

It just doesn't appeal anyone to listen to any ideas on anything else. It repels people from even considering rational conservative ideas.

Even many of the congresscritters are acting like they know more than the scientists.

And yes, this is all my opinion. I can only tell you that it's the first time I'm embarrassed to be a conservative libertarian. It's getting more difficult to convince people that conservatives want to do the right thing for their fellow man.

But how much of that is overstated? How much of that is simply not understanding their point of view? How many conservatives would you say actually don't care whether they spread the virus to other people? As I've been saying, this whole thing is about belief. And a lot of what is driving belief for some is lack of trust. And a lot of that lack of trust was earned.

 

[jamil]

Welcome to 2020 where people refuse to say, you know what, I was wrong, we should try something else. Stubbornness is what will drag this out and make a mountain out of a mole (well it never really was a mole but you get the point).

I will stand by health experts above crusty clowns in congress every day when it comes to virus/pathology. At least the health experts always start with "as of now" or "based on what we know" instead of making some stupid blanket statement that later has to be walked backed because it was an opinion or based on very little to no evidence.

Yeah. Based on what we know now, your mask is not helping you. Don't bother. But do give your masks to health care workers. At least some of them are admitting that they should have told people that they should wear cloth masks to prevent themselves from spreading disease, that people shouldn't buy up the N95 masks because healthcare workers need them to care for people who have the disease.

 

[chipbennett]

You seem to assume objectively healthy people. Most people don't include a conscious self evaluation of their own health in their daily routines.

Where "objectively healthy" = not infected with coronavirus. And I stand by that assumption. Our estimates are that maybe 1% of our entire population has been infected with the virus. That means that 99% have not been infected. So, yes: the default state is "not infected", i.e. apparently (or "objectively") healthy.

 

[dusty88]

But how much of that is overstated? How much of that is simply not understanding their point of view? How many conservatives would you say actually don't care whether they spread the virus to other people? As I've been saying, this whole thing is about belief. And a lot of what is driving belief for some is lack of trust. And a lot of that lack of trust was earned.

No doubt this has built up over time (the political divide and lack of trust). However, I think that the virus was politicized by some denial in the early days and that was followed with investing in the sunk cost fallacy, and cognitive dissonance (which are maybe the same thing in this case).

It may be overstated, in the sense that liberals don't trust conservatives and especially Trump supporters. And we now each have our own set of media, and the beginnings of different social media formats. The more we separate our conversations, the greater the misunderstanding. But a new line was crossed with so many conservatives denying the science and realities of the pandemic. It reinforced some of the stereotypes. And it made it impossible to work together on the crisis. We can blame everybody for the buildup to this but at the moment it's the conservatives who picked the side that harms both themselves and society.

 

[idkfa]

I don't think people are blaming conservatives for particularly spreading the virus (with the exception of the indoor Trump rallies). At the moment, young people going to bars and house parties appears to be a key source of community transmission.

What I think people do see is that a big chunk of conservatives are starting to look like the Flat Earth Society. Googling until they find some rare bird doctor who agrees with their preconceived notions, or misinterpreting a study, or even quoting "doctors" from completely different fields rather than deal with their cognitive dissonance.

It just doesn't appeal anyone to listen to any ideas on anything else. It repels people from even considering rational conservative ideas.

Even many of the congresscritters are acting like they know more than the scientists.

And yes, this is all my opinion. I can only tell you that it's the first time I'm embarrassed to be a conservative libertarian. It's getting more difficult to convince people that conservatives want to do the right thing for their fellow man.

These are some heavy-handed opinions and accusations.
Regardless of party affiliation, most people are not equipped(as a matter of fact) to interpret the results of scientific publications.
The regulatory bodies themselves are saying things without saying things: OSHA, for one, is flat out saying cloth masks are not PPE, and tiptoe their way of saying "do whatever you want, just don't ask us".
CDC can say pretty much whatever and they aren't accountable for anything.
WHO and CDC did a 180 on their recommendations repeatedly.
The key person responsible for the original "model", it turns out, was shockingly, astonishingly off the mark on every single pandemic in the past 20 years -- mostly because his code is manure.

... and it is conservatives that "are starting to look like the Flat Earth Society"?

 

[chipbennett]

But how much of that is overstated? How much of that is simply not understanding their point of view? How many conservatives would you say actually don't care whether they spread the virus to other people? As I've been saying, this whole thing is about belief. And a lot of what is driving belief for some is lack of trust. And a lot of that lack of trust was earned.

And projection. There is an awful lot of psychological projection being applied to the beliefs, decisions, and behaviors - on both side of the mask debate. Not everyone who wears a mask is a bootlicking sheep. Not everyone who doesn't wear a mask is a selfish ******* who doesn't care whose grandmother he kills.

 

[dusty88]

These are some heavy-handed opinions and accusations.

Okay, but I'm just saying what I think it looks like from outside the conservative chamber. (and for me even from inside of it, which is why I primarily stay outside of the conversations why I reevaluate my affiliations and maybe need to go step back again)

Just maybe if you're agreeing with a president about a pandemic instead of the plethora of experts, maybe you're listening to the wrong people

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

No doubt this has built up over time (the political divide and lack of trust). However, I think that the virus was politicized by some denial in the early days and that was followed with investing in the sunk cost fallacy, and cognitive dissonance (which are maybe the same thing in this case).

It may be overstated, in the sense that liberals don't trust conservatives and especially Trump supporters. And we now each have our own set of media, and the beginnings of different social media formats. The more we separate our conversations, the greater the misunderstanding. But a new line was crossed with so many conservatives denying the science and realities of the pandemic. It reinforced some of the stereotypes. And it made it impossible to work together on the crisis. We can blame everybody for the buildup to this but at the moment it's the conservatives who picked the side that harms both themselves and society.

In fairness, this is largely due to the fact that conservatives are being banished from the existing platforms...not by the desires of conservative content creators.

 

[dusty88]

And projection. There is an awful lot of psychological projection being applied to the beliefs, decisions, and behaviors - on both side of the mask debate. Not everyone who wears a mask is a bootlicking sheep. Not everyone who doesn't wear a mask is a selfish ******* who doesn't care whose grandmother he kills.

definitely agree with that

And in general our society has become rather poor at even attempting to listen to other viewpoints.

 

[BugI02]

Welcome to 2020 where people refuse to say, you know what, I was wrong, we should try something else. Stubbornness is what will drag this out and make a mountain out of a mole (well it never really was a mole but you get the point).

I will stand by health experts above crusty clowns in congress every day when it comes to virus/pathology. At least the health experts always start with "as of now" or "based on what we know" instead of making some stupid blanket statement that later has to be walked backed because it was an opinion or based on very little to no evidence.

So, I guess you don't consider Fauci a health expert. Good call!

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

And projection. There is an awful lot of psychological projection being applied to the beliefs, decisions, and behaviors - on both side of the mask debate. Not everyone who wears a mask is a bootlicking sheep. Not everyone who doesn't wear a mask is a selfish ******* who doesn't care whose grandmother he kills.

Exactly.

This is roughly analogous to the CC vs. OC debate.

 

[eldirector]

'Cause I like numbers.

As of today:
3,296,599 total cases in the US

329,968,629 total population of the US

So... 0.99% of the population have COVID-19.

The flu ranges from 3% - 11% infection rate each year.

 

[idkfa]

No doubt this has built up over time (the political divide and lack of trust). However, I think that the virus was politicized by some denial in the early days and that was followed with investing in the sunk cost fallacy, and cognitive dissonance (which are maybe the same thing in this case).

It may be overstated, in the sense that liberals don't trust conservatives and especially Trump supporters. And we now each have our own set of media, and the beginnings of different social media formats. The more we separate our conversations, the greater the misunderstanding. But a new line was crossed with so many conservatives denying the science and realities of the pandemic. It reinforced some of the stereotypes. And it made it impossible to work together on the crisis. We can blame everybody for the buildup to this but at the moment it's the conservatives who picked the side that harms both themselves and society.

Which realities of the pandemic?
Who specifically is denying said realities?
Conservatives are calling bovine manure out when they see it -- and there's plenty of that going 'round.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Okay, but I'm just saying what I think it looks like from outside the conservative chamber. (and for me even from inside of it, which is why I primarily stay outside of the conversations why I reevaluate my affiliations and maybe need to go step back again)

Just maybe if you're agreeing with a president about a pandemic instead of the plethora of experts, maybe you're listening to the wrong people

Those same experts that said we didn’t need masks? Or the experts that said summer heat would kill it?

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Or are these the experts that said BLM protests wouldn’t spread it, but trump rallies will? Which experts are we referring to?

 

[chipbennett]

No doubt this has built up over time (the political divide and lack of trust). However, I think that the virus was politicized by some denial in the early days and that was followed with investing in the sunk cost fallacy, and cognitive dissonance (which are maybe the same thing in this case).

It may be overstated, in the sense that liberals don't trust conservatives and especially Trump supporters. And we now each have our own set of media, and the beginnings of different social media formats. The more we separate our conversations, the greater the misunderstanding. But a new line was crossed with so many conservatives denying the science and realities of the pandemic. It reinforced some of the stereotypes. And it made it impossible to work together on the crisis. We can blame everybody for the buildup to this but at the moment it's the conservatives who picked the side that harms both themselves and society.

There's an awful lot of confirmation bias in these statements. You can't say that we must be skeptical of ever-changing science (i.e. our understanding of the virus) on one hand, and then on the other hand claim that skepticism with which you disagree is denial of science and reality. When conservatives were saying the initial models were wrong, were they denying science - even though they were proved to be right? When conservatives point out that almost half of the coronavirus deaths in the US happened in/were related to nursing homes while the left were simply waving the bloody shirt of total death count, which side was denying science and the reality of the pandemic? When the left pushes memes that claim that cloth masks provide the efficiency and efficacy of N95 respirators in preventing transmission, were they denying science and the realities of the pandemic?

You say that it reinforced some of the stereotypes. Translated, that's nothing more than confirmation bias. You see, and interpret, according to what you want to see and how you want to interpret it. I recognize that this happens on both sides, but your statements here make a very one-sided argument against conservatives.

 

[BugI02]

No doubt this has built up over time (the political divide and lack of trust). However, I think that the virus was politicized by some denial in the early days and that was followed with investing in the sunk cost fallacy, and cognitive dissonance (which are maybe the same thing in this case).

It may be overstated, in the sense that liberals don't trust conservatives and especially Trump supporters. And we now each have our own set of media, and the beginnings of different social media formats. The more we separate our conversations, the greater the misunderstanding. But a new line was crossed with so many conservatives denying the science and realities of the pandemic. It reinforced some of the stereotypes. And it made it impossible to work together on the crisis. We can blame everybody for the buildup to this but at the moment it's the conservatives who picked the side that harms both themselves and society.

Just like we're denying the 'science' of climate change?

Starting from the assumption that what you wish to do is following the science is ... revealing

 

[idkfa]

Just posted. While this is predictable, I'm still lost for words.