To Mask or Not to Mask?

[Ingomike]

I think we're seeing the same thing but one of is correct in what we're calling it. You say they're "sheep". And sometimes we like to say they're asleep. Okay so we have two sides. One side says masks aren't necessary, the other side says that we need to wear masks for the greater good. And both sides look at the other and call the other the same names. You think it's that they're sheep, and they think it's that you're sheep. Or there are other metaphors we like to hurl at each other. They need to wake up! As if they're asleep. And they think it's you that's asleep.

You're not both right. You're not both sheep, or asleep. That metaphor does not explain all the dynamics. It only explains to you what you see just from your perspective. How do you explain that they are indeed at least as informed about their own side of it as you are? It's true. They are every bit as informed about their own point of view. They read as much or more about what their side thinks as you do. They read and research their own uncritically. They're no less awake about their own perspective than you are about yours. But, for all their "research" they can't see your side of it because they're less willing to see yours--and not because they're sheep. Or asleep. Or whatever metephore you want to use to explain why you get it and they don't.

The dynamics going on is that you don't trust their sources. And by sources, I mean the people on their side, not just in the news, but in their daily conversations, their twitter timelines, their facebook pages, their information bubbles.

The dynamic that best explains this is human nature. Human nature isn't herd-ish. It's tribal. We form sides when there is disagreement and we fiercely defend the side we choose. And the side we choose is typically the side that best suits our temperaments. Those people aren't sheep. They've joined clan-collective and they're defending it. You must wear a mask to 1) show that you care about the collective. You're defending clan-individual, you shouldn't require masks because it's up to the individual to decide whether to wear a mask or not.

They don't believe different because they're sheep. They think fundamentally different from you. And then some of us can see some truth on both sides. But primarily, I find myself more on team individual than team collective, even though I do see some societal benefits to wearing masks under certain conditions.

This may apply to the posters in this thread but by no means applies to the general population.

The "team collective" are called sheeple precisely because most blindly follow the headlines from MSM and social media without ever critically thinking on it. This to me is also accurately described as being asleep.

Most "team individual" I know, by their very nature, have looked at the situation, criticality examined it, and reached a decision. That is not how sheeple operate. It is far from being asleep.

This lack of understanding of the "team individual" thinking and lumping it in with the unthinking masses is silliness. Calling the individual rights type thinking people "snowflakes" was about as intellectually lacking as I have seen posted. Made me laugh out loud.

And so much of this thread gets bogged down in minutiae of masks when many freedom loving individual rights folks are looking at the big picture, which is, if they can do this now, under similar circumstances what else can they force the public to do? The pro-mask types never really want to discuss that bigger ramifications are present than just this less than advertised virus...

 

[chipbennett]

You are not catching on - the reply was to Bug - not to you.

The confusion stems from CM quoting me in his reply to Bug, without other context. I was trying to figure out what he meant/was saying to me, by quoting me. Or, maybe I just hadn't had enough coffee yet.

 

[chipbennett]

Theses were CDC numbers. The organization with the info all of the mask mandates were based on.

OK... INGO mask faithful... let's hear from you now.

1-1.5% rate reduction, well within the margin of error... Come and make your case.

Okay, "within the margin of error" doesn't mean much in terms of a clinical study. "Statistical sampling error" is not how analysis of variance is applied to clinical (or even epidemiological) study data (unlike, say, polling). What matters is whether or not the observed change is statistically significant. I've not seen the study (or, perhaps, the "study"?), so I can't say for sure.

 

[churchmouse]

I think we're seeing the same thing but one of is correct in what we're calling it. You say they're "sheep". And sometimes we like to say they're asleep. Okay so we have two sides. One side says masks aren't necessary, the other side says that we need to wear masks for the greater good. And both sides look at the other and call the other the same names. You think it's that they're sheep, and they think it's that you're sheep. Or there are other metaphors we like to hurl at each other. They need to wake up! As if they're asleep. And they think it's you that's asleep.

You're not both right. You're not both sheep, or asleep. That metaphor does not explain all the dynamics. It only explains to you what you see just from your perspective. How do you explain that they are indeed at least as informed about their own side of it as you are? It's true. They are every bit as informed about their own point of view. They read as much or more about what their side thinks as you do. They read and research their own uncritically. They're no less awake about their own perspective than you are about yours. But, for all their "research" they can't see your side of it because they're less willing to see yours--and not because they're sheep. Or asleep. Or whatever metephore you want to use to explain why you get it and they don't.

The dynamics going on is that you don't trust their sources. And by sources, I mean the people on their side, not just in the news, but in their daily conversations, their twitter timelines, their facebook pages, their information bubbles.

The dynamic that best explains this is human nature. Human nature isn't herd-ish. It's tribal. We form sides when there is disagreement and we fiercely defend the side we choose. And the side we choose is typically the side that best suits our temperaments. Those people aren't sheep. They've joined clan-collective and they're defending it. You must wear a mask to 1) show that you care about the collective. You're defending clan-individual, you shouldn't require masks because it's up to the individual to decide whether to wear a mask or not.

They don't believe different because they're sheep. They think fundamentally different from you. And then some of us can see some truth on both sides. But primarily, I find myself more on team individual than team collective, even though I do see some societal benefits to wearing masks under certain conditions.

How we see the world trough our eyes is a sum total of what we have personally experienced. The good/bad and painful all totaled up into how we tend to see things.

In your summation I see the path you have followed (In a simplified sense of course) and why you would see this in that way.

I grew up in a Dem. family. Lever pulling marching in lockstep sheep off to the slaughter no matter what is at stake. Hard core union dip 's blinded by the light. It was so very hard to break free of these influences. And once in a great while some of that crap will get free for a minute and jade my view.

In my mind anyone that would vote for Bidiot and that Ilk is blind. Blind to what we are about to loose and have been loosing for years.

Yup.......sheep. But in that group are some pretty decent hard working folks. That is what really screws me sideways.

 

[BugI02]

Kristina Box is an OB-GYN.

That's why she would be most comfortable if you all were p******

 

[Chewie]

Kristina Box is an OB-GYN.

Yes she is,but that doesn't prevent her from coat tail hanging. She is one of Holcombs crew and appears to be unwilling to do much other than support the edicts of her leaders.
In my opinion.

 

[nonobaddog]

I think we're seeing the same thing but one of is correct in what we're calling it. You say they're "sheep". And sometimes we like to say they're asleep. Okay so we have two sides. One side says masks aren't necessary, the other side says that we need to wear masks for the greater good. And both sides look at the other and call the other the same names. You think it's that they're sheep, and they think it's that you're sheep. Or there are other metaphors we like to hurl at each other. They need to wake up! As if they're asleep. And they think it's you that's asleep.

You're not both right. You're not both sheep, or asleep. That metaphor does not explain all the dynamics. It only explains to you what you see just from your perspective. How do you explain that they are indeed at least as informed about their own side of it as you are? It's true. They are every bit as informed about their own point of view. They read as much or more about what their side thinks as you do. They read and research their own uncritically. They're no less awake about their own perspective than you are about yours. But, for all their "research" they can't see your side of it because they're less willing to see yours--and not because they're sheep. Or asleep. Or whatever metephore you want to use to explain why you get it and they don't.

The dynamics going on is that you don't trust their sources. And by sources, I mean the people on their side, not just in the news, but in their daily conversations, their twitter timelines, their facebook pages, their information bubbles.

The dynamic that best explains this is human nature. Human nature isn't herd-ish. It's tribal. We form sides when there is disagreement and we fiercely defend the side we choose. And the side we choose is typically the side that best suits our temperaments. Those people aren't sheep. They've joined clan-collective and they're defending it. You must wear a mask to 1) show that you care about the collective. You're defending clan-individual, you shouldn't require masks because it's up to the individual to decide whether to wear a mask or not.

They don't believe different because they're sheep. They think fundamentally different from you. And then some of us can see some truth on both sides. But primarily, I find myself more on team individual than team collective, even though I do see some societal benefits to wearing masks under certain conditions.

Yeah, maybe that - or maybe they are really sheep.

 

[jamil]

Your insistence that vitamins are "utter quackery" is utterly absurd, and contrary to actual science.

If you are spitting on people when you talk to them, you have a problem and should look into fixing it. Regardless, if you are observing social distancing, said spitting from speech is irrelevant. (Again, that pesky science.) As for things we touch: thus far, the science is fairly conclusive that Covid is not transmitted through contact exposure. And, again, if you are observing proper hygiene, surface contamination is essentially irrelevant.

The only people who are "snowflakes" are those who insist that others "do something" to mitigate the risk of the demanding party - particularly when the person being demanded to "do something" isn't contributing to that risk.

People do not always know that they are positive for being a felon in possession. That is why we (and police) should act like we are all felons in possession and detain and search everyone for a feloniously possessed firearm.

Well, everyone spits on the person they're talking to if they're within a few feet. At least a little. For some it's actually visible. Ewww!

 

[jamil]

Yeah, maybe that - or maybe they are really sheep.

Okay. So what makes them sheep?

 

[jamil]

Theses were CDC numbers. The organization with the info all of the mask mandates were based on.

OK... INGO mask faithful... let's hear from you now.

1-1.5% rate reduction, well within the margin of error... Come and make your case.

Well yeah, but when the they came out with the co-morbidities study, many of you tried to say it meant that only 9% or whatever it was actually died from covid. And that's not what it was saying at all. So is there a link to what you're talking about? I'd kinda like to see for myself if it's really saying that, or it's saying something that you just think says that.

 

[chipbennett]

Well, everyone spits on the person they're talking to if they're within a few feet. At least a little. For some it's actually visible. Ewww!

That is just simply not true. Vapor in one's exhalation is not the same thing as spit (or even spittle).

It is intentional exaggeration used as a straw man.

 

[vulindlela]

Yes she is,but that doesn't prevent her from coat tail hanging. She is one of Holcombs crew and appears to be unwilling to do much other than support the edicts of her leaders.
In my opinion.

I don't disagree.
My point was that I would rather have a Respiratory Therapist at the helm.

 

[jamil]

This may apply to the posters in this thread but by no means applies to the general population.

The "team collective" are called sheeple precisely because most blindly follow the headlines from MSM and social media without ever critically thinking on it. This to me is also accurately described as being asleep.

Most "team individual" I know, by their very nature, have looked at the situation, criticality examined it, and reached a decision. That is not how sheeple operate. It is far from being asleep.

This lack of understanding of the "team individual" thinking and lumping it in with the unthinking masses is silliness. Calling the individual rights type thinking people "snowflakes" was about as intellectually lacking as I have seen posted. Made me laugh out loud.

And so much of this thread gets bogged down in minutiae of masks when many freedom loving individual rights folks are looking at the big picture, which is, if they can do this now, under similar circumstances what else can they force the public to do? The pro-mask types never really want to discuss that bigger ramifications are present than just this less than advertised virus...

Okay, a couple of things, calling people "sheep" usually means they tend to do what everyone else is doing. So I think it can apply for things like fads and such. But I don't think it's what we're talking about here. The people on the other side calling YOU the sheep are pretty much as well read in on their own side of things as you are on yours. It's not blindly following because they have as much as you do invested in their own thinking. My SIL is not a sheep. She eats, sleeps, and breathes progressive.

I think a problem here is that you're making the heroes your side. It's the OTHER that doesn't do critical thinking. But I kinda think neither side really does a lot of what critical thinking actually is. We do have the ability to think and analyze. But, we spend most of our rational thinking trying to figure out why information contradicting our understanding of the world is wrong. We've already decided it was wrong instinctively. Critical thinking is trying to step outside of the instinct and the biases towards our own worldview and step outside of our own world view to analyze new information. Team collective isn't all wrong. And team-individual isn't all right. Critical thinking should look just at what is factual and true regardless of whose team says it.

BTW, I picked team-individual vs team-collective because it looks to me like that's the primary axis which divides us in the US. Humans are both individualistic and groupish. As a longtime radical individualist, it was hard to come to terms admitting that we are also groupish, but the facts couldn't be ignored. I had to change my thinking. But I do think that a society which emphasizes individualism will have the most freedom. And that will be at the expense of safety. And that there is a place for a little collectivism there as a sort of reasonable safety net. So it's not that only individualists are capable of critical thinking. All humans are. There's nothing about either ideology that makes one capable of looking past one's own biases. And that's what critical thinking is.

I'll concede that there is a sort of "sheeple". Maybe what I'd call the apathetic class. They're not thinking much about anything except that Joe Biden said he'll give them $2K and Trump is only getting them $600. Besides, people keep saying that Trump guy is a Nazi. I guess that's bad. So I'll vote for that really old guy instead of the kinda old guy who says mean things on twitter.

 

[jamil]

That is just simply not true. Vapor in one's exhalation is not the same thing as spit (or even spittle).

It is intentional exaggeration used as a straw man.

Hey, I'm not claiming that not wearing a mask is harming people. But I'm okay with using colloquial language on an internet forum. I'm okay with calling the droplets that one spews when they talk "spit". It's icky either way when you think about it.

 

[BugI02]

 

[jamil]

View attachment 129429

This is how it works. This is what fuels the internets.

 

[Chewie]

I don't disagree.
My point was that I would rather have a Respiratory Therapist at the helm.

Ok, I misunderstood your meaning. I completely agree (although the results might be the same).

 

[peterock]

Hey, I'm not claiming that not wearing a mask is harming people. But I'm okay with using colloquial language on an internet forum. I'm okay with calling the droplets that one spews when they talk "spit". It's icky either way when you think about it.

Out of curiosity did you wear a mask prior to 2020?

 

[jamil]

Out of curiosity did you wear a mask prior to 2020?

Of course not.

 

[Chewie]

Of course not.

Well, there you go, the same activity as before wuhu is suddenly an issue!
Sorry "but the devil made me do it". Respects to Flip Wilson for the quote.