Three Cheers for Romneycare?

[Kirk Freeman]

Do you really believe that?

No, but I am taking great delight in pointing out that the self-imputed ideological purity of Libertarians does not exist.

Reason and mandated insurance sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g. First comes love, then comes elections, then comes taking off the leather jacket and actually doing something.

 

[ZombieApocolypse]

The problem is statists.... regardless of which label they choose to pin on their lapel.

Statist is short for statitician right?

 

[dross]

On Galt's Island, we'll just vote the socialists off the island. Nah, so long as the government of that island stays afloat while I'm alive, what do I care if the future generations must suffer through my compromises?

I feel ya'. Vote 'em off the island. Use the process to silence your critics. It starts with the best of intentions.

And what about the people you marry, and their kids? Ask any successful businessman how much control he has over his own kids who call him a greedy capitalist?

Your beef is with the world, my friend.

 

[J_Wales]

I say this in all seriousness - you guys that are young enough, the best thing you can do based on your stated beliefs is to find somewhere else to live. It's just not going to be what you want here. Band together and buy an island. I'd like to see your island in 100 years, though. Bet it will have already started floating towards socialism.

Maybe my memory is a bit foggy, but when our founding fathers found they were living in an increasingly tyrannical system that was hostile towards Liberty I do not remember them running away and buying an island someplace.

I seem to recall that they wrote a letter that said something like, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

 

[J_Wales]

Statist is short for statitician right?

LOL!

Or Mr. Jones' farm.

 

[dross]

Maybe my memory is a bit foggy, but when our founding fathers found they were living in an increasingly tyrannical system that was hostile towards Liberty I do not remember them running away and buying an island someplace.

I seem to recall that they wrote a letter that said something like, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

That was about fifteen minutes before they were in charge, when they almost immediately started adjusting that to fit practical political problems.

And BTW, it was a perfect storm of England seeing the colonies as more of a nuisance than they were worth and political strife in Europe. If it wanted to, England would have crushed the rebellion.

Don't think our founders didn't recognize that the timing was good.

 

[J_Wales]

That was about fifteen minutes before they were in charge, when they almost immediately started adjusting that to fit practical political problems.

And BTW, it was a perfect storm of England seeing the colonies as more of a nuisance than they were worth and political strife in Europe. If it wanted to, England would have crushed the rebellion.

Don't think our founders didn't recognize that the timing was good.

Time will tell what happens.

 

[rambone]

No, but I am taking great delight in pointing out that the self-imputed ideological purity of Libertarians does not exist.

Who ever said that every self-imputed libertarian was ideologically pure?

Reason and mandated insurance sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g.

I thought you posted this thread to defend mandated health insurance?

People got bent out of shape when I pointed out her endorsement of Romney several months ago. Look at her now. Hip hip hooray for Romneycare.

 

[ray d]

Its Ron Paul or a police state. Romney is the same as Obama.

 

[rambone]

I really don't believe that's true. Libertarian thinking is completely opposed to everything in the Democrat platform.

What about social freedoms? Things like marriage equality, ending drug prohibition, limiting police powers, opposition to racial profiling, opposition to domestic spying, and so on.

I can visit Democratic Underground and find common ground with them on many issues. I could go to Human Events and find common ground on many other issues. I could also argue all day with either side.

The libertarian philosophy doesn't fit in the Left-Right Paradigm.

 

[rambone]

Here is a photograph of Governor Romney signing his Universal Health Care bill. His buddy Ted Kennedy stands over his left shoulder.


Mitt Romney Slideshow (Slide 13)

Romney signs into law a new health care reform bill during a ceremony at Faneuil Hall April 12, 2006 in Boston. The late Sen. Edward Kennedy joined Romney for the signing of the bill, which made Massachusetts the first state in the country to require all residents have health insurance. His support of a plan that many feel was an inspiration for "Obamacare" has put the Republican on the defensive ahead of the 2012 elections.

 

[J_Wales]

When wrongs are pressed because it is believed they will be borne, resistance becomes morality.
-Jefferson

 

[dross]

What about social freedoms? Things like marriage equality, ending drug prohibition, limiting police powers, opposition to racial profiling, opposition to domestic spying, and so on.

I can visit Democratic Underground and find common ground with them on many issues. I could go to Human Events and find common ground on many other issues. I could also argue all day with either side.

The libertarian philosophy doesn't fit in the Left-Right Paradigm.

Two things about that - one, the underlying philosophy of the modern left does not recognize natural rights or inalienable rights, so any rights they extend to you are largesse, and two, when you look into what they want to do to extend more freedom isn't really extending anything at all.

For instance, they're for gay marriage, an imperfect solution in my opinion, but okay, given the reality, marriage may be the only fair choice. But then they'd require employers and insurance companies to give spousal benefits.

Now, the Republicans have their problems, but at least there's leverage. You can use conservative principles against them because at least they acknowledge believing in less government intrusion. Their philosophy requires mental gyrations. Democrat philosophy is perfectly internally consistent.

Finally, in general social freedoms have been expanding, while economic freedom is contracting. The fight is in the economic arena right now, and the Democrats are completely opposed to free market capitalism.

 

[rambone]

the underlying philosophy of the modern left does not recognize natural rights or inalienable rights, so any rights they extend to you are largesse

The "Lefties" would say the same thing about the "Right." Both sides think that they are for freedom and for rights. Neither side will admit the rights that they stomp. They are both wrong.

Social Conservatives don't recognize inalienable rights.
Drug Warriors don't recognize inalienable rights.
War on Terror supporters don't recognize inalienable rights.

On these issues, and others, the Right does not believe in inalienable rights either. One side can't claim to be the champion of inalienable rights when they've attacked them wholesale all these years.

Finally, in general social freedoms have been expanding, while economic freedom is contracting. The fight is in the economic arena right now, and the Democrats are completely opposed to free market capitalism.

I see our social freedoms in perilous times. We have more armed federal agents than ever. There are Federal TSA checkpoints at airports, bus terminals, train stations, subways, ferries, & weigh stations. Federal agents securing stadiums and searching people at the Superbowl. There's the Patriot Act that eliminates the 4th amendment. Then there's NDAA, eliminating the 5th amendment and codifying martial law. We have assassination of U.S. citizens. We have indefinite detention of 'suspects.' There are Federal agents chainsawing through apartments looking for plants. Federal agents are monitoring citizens' online activities without a warrant. There are tens of thousands of Americans on terrorist watch lists and no-fly lists, where they will be denied their rights without appeal. We have thousands of Federal sneak & peek warrants being conducted on suspects of non-violent crimes. Federal SWAT teams are conducting raids on raw milk producers. The Dept of Education sends agents breaking down doors over student loans. The Federal government is granting millions of dollars to local police departments to militarize them. Border Patrol agents set up highway ID check points 100 miles into the mainland. TSA & DHS, and who knows what new agencies are to come under the next "conservative."

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Who ever said that every self-imputed libertarian was ideologically pure?

Mmmm, every single Libertarian you talk to.

That's why it is great fun to remind them that Reason magazine was pimping mandated insurance just a few years ago.

I thought you posted this thread to defend mandated health insurance?

Ick, no.

I posted this thread to stimulate discussion in the salon that is INGO.

It is of interest to INGO so I thought I'd post a column that addresses it. Oh, did you see I also posted a rebuttal of the column.

 

[Cerberus]

Reason the flagship publication of the Libertarians? H E double hockeysticks no. The liberalish nature of that rag is well noted in libertarian circles.

Care to state which artcle and issue this pro-healthcare op-ed was in?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Care to state which artcle and issue this pro-healthcare op-ed was in?

It was in the column that I posted. Why doesn't anyone read what I link to? People think I am here to bore them?

"In November 2004, for example, libertarian Ronald Bailey praised mandated private health insurance in Reason magazine, saying that it "could preserve and extend the advantages of a free market with a minimal amount of coercion."

Here's the article from Reason, Mandatory Health Insurance Now!, November 2004. We don't care what you do, as long as you do what we want:

Mandatory Health Insurance Now! - Reason Magazine

Reason the flagship publication of the Libertarians? H E double hockeysticks no. The liberalish nature of that rag is well noted in libertarian circles.

Ah, yes, THOSE Libertarians are not true and pure--what fun.

Who ever said that every self-imputed libertarian was ideologically pure?

Again, every single self-imputed libertarian thinks HE is ideologically pure, just ask them.

 

[rambone]

Obama gives a shout out to a fellow traveler

I can't think of anything that Obama would have done differently as governor. Ban guns, Universal Health Care... 3 cheers!

Obama praises Romney for Mass. health care overhaul

In a speech to a bipartisan group of governors at the White House this morning, Pres. Obama gave Mitt Romney a nod of approval for Romney’s implementation of health care reform as governor of Massachusetts.

“I agree with Mitt Romney, who recently said he’s proud of what he accomplished on health care in Massachusetts and said he supports giving states the power to determine their own health care solutions,” Obama said.

Obama is not the only Democrat this week to praise Romney for his health care overhaul. “One of the best things he [Romney] did was to be the coauthor of our health care reform, which has been a model for national health care reform,” said current Mass. Gov. Deval Patrick on ABC’s “This Week” on Sunday.

 

[rambone]

Democrats hold anniversary party for Romney's reform




Take a Minute to Thank Mitt Romney for his Leadership on Health Reform | Democrats.org

Tomorrow marks another health care milestone. It represents a legislative accomplishment that helped blaze a trail for progressive reform 100 years in the making – and it was used as a model to pass the Affordable Care Act. Five years ago tomorrow, Governor Mitt Romney stood side by side with the late Senator Ted Kennedy to sign health reform into law in Massachusetts, making quality and affordable health coverage in the Bay State a model for national reform. And for that, Mitt Romney deserves thanks.

Piece of cake?

New Hampshire Democrats will gather Tuesday to honor Romney with a giant thank-you card and birthday cake for being the “founding father of health reform,” the Union Leader’s Granite Status political blog reports. April 12 is the fifth anniversary of the signing of the Massachusetts law, which then-Gov. Romney championed. It was used as a model for Obamacare.
In Massachusetts, Democrats will cut a piece of “thank you Mitt Romney” cake to mark the occasion, according to an e-mail from the party.

 

[rambone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IJsiBHYTFg